The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, ending a practice used in Texas and 18 other states.
Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, Justice Clarence Thomas and Scalia, as expected, voted to uphold the executions. They were joined by Justice Sandra Day O’Connor.
Tuesday’s ruling prevents states from making 16- and 17-year-olds eligible for execution.
The trend is to abolish the practice because “our society views juveniles … as categorically less culpable than the average criminal.”
I remember being 16 and 17 years old. And I remember that I was fully aware of my actions and their consequences. To say that a 17 year old doesn’t understand the severity or the consequences of brutally murdering someone is bullshit.
So let’s meet some of these innocent little babies (as the ACLU would have you believe), and see just how culpable they really are:
- Christopher Simmons was 17 when he kidnapped a neighbor, hog-tied her and threw her off a bridge in 1993. Prosecutors say he planned the burglary and killing of Shirley Crook and bragged that he could get away with it because of his age.
- A jury found Lee Boyd Malvo guilty of capital murder and terrorism in the Washington-area sniper case, which left 10 people dead and terrorized the region. Malvo was 17 at the time of the shootings.
Texas has already executed 13 juveniles, to include:
- Toronto Patterson a former teenage drug dealer was executed for killing a 3-year-old cousin at her Dallas home – 1 of 3 relatives gunned down so he could steal some fancy car wheels.
- Napoleon Beazley, executed for car jacking and murdering a 63-year-old man, whom he shot in the head with a .45-caliber pistol.
- T.J. Jones — during the robbery of a 75-year-old man, pulled the man from his vehicle as he was backing out of his driveway, and shot him in the head with a .357 magnum pistol.
The following men all committed horrendous and deliberate murders when they were 17 years old. They are currently sitting on Texas’ death row. Because of this new Court decision, they will probably be spared the fate they deserve:
- Raul Villarreal — Convicted for kidnapping and killing Jennifer Ertman (14) and Elizabeth Pena (16). The girls had taken a shortcut home. Each girl was repeatedly raped by Villarreal and his fellow gang members, and then strangled to death. Villarreal later bragged that he stepped on the neck of Jennifer Ertman in an effort to strangle her because the “bitch wouldn’t die” after being strangled with a belt.
- Robert Acuna — Convicted of killing two elderly neighbors, James and Joyce Carroll, shooting them “execution style” and then stealing their car.
- Geno Wilson — On 12/02/98 on the streets of Houston, Texas, Wilson shot an adult male during a robbery attempt. The victim was reportedly selling bottles of cleaning solution on the street and was approached by Wilson and 3 black male companions. Wilson indicated he would buy a bottle of the cleaning solution then produced a handgun and pointed it at the head of the victim, demanding cash. When the victim denied having any cash, Wilson shot him once in the back of the head.
- Bruce Williams — On 02/03/99, Williams abducted two Asian females. The victims were forced by Williams at gunpoint to go to a wooded area where he then shot both of the victims. One victim survived the shooting and called police.
- Tran Son — Tran and three others lured a man to a club in Houston and murdered him because of his relationship with a woman who worked at the club. Tran and the others involved learned that another woman who worked at the club was aware of their identities. Tran and two of the others drove that woman to a secluded beach and shot her in the head, resulting in her death. Tran and two others then became concerned that the fourth person involved in the first murder might not keep their secret. The fourth person was lured to a meeting under false pretenses. He brought a friend along. Tran and one of the others shot and killed the fourth person and his friend. Prosecution for the death of theses last two murders resulted in the capital murder conviction for Tran.
- Whitney Reeves — On 8/20/1999, Reeves and one co-defendant shot and killed a 14 year old white female and her father, a 40 year old white male, with a 12 gauge shotgun. The double homicide occurred at the victims’ apartment in Beaumont. The apparent motive for the shooting was that the 14-year-old girl had testified at a grand jury hearing that resulted in charges of Aggravated Sexual Assault of a Child against the co-defendant.
- Michael Lopez — On 09/29/98, during the early morning hours in Houston, shot and killed a 26 year old Deputy constable on a routine traffic stop.
- Jorge Salinas — On 07/28/2001 in Mission, Texas, Salinas and 2 co-defendants fatally shot a 29 year old Hispanic male 1 time with a 12 gauge shotgun and caused the death of a 21 month old Hispanic female by abandoning her in an area where she was not likely to be found. Salinas and 2 co-defendants carjacked the victim for his 2001 Chevy Malibu vehicle. Salinas and 2 co-defendants then dumped the 29 year old Hispanic male victim in an orchard and took the 21 month old Hispanic female child, while strapped in her car seat, and placed her in a tall grassy area. Salinas and co-defendants fled in the victim’s vehicle.
‘Less culpable’ kids don’t kidnap their neighbors, hog tie them, and throw them off bridges. ‘Less culpable’ kids don’t execute their elderly neighbors so they can steal their cars. ‘Less culpable’ kids don’t gang-rape and strangle other little kids. Hell, even your ‘average adult criminal’ doesn’t commit crimes as heinous as these.
I’m sorry. I don’t buy the “less culpable” part of the argument. These men are evil; they have committed crimes deserving of our society’s harshest punishment: death. To argue that their age has any mitigating factor on their ‘culpability’ (a synonym for culpability is “guilt”) is a slap in the face to their victims and their families.
Email This Post
⋅
Print This Post
dude i know exactly what you mean. all these juveniles deserve to die. they committed a crime, now they need to reep the consequences. i am currently 17 now and i am definetly mature enough to know that i shouldnt murder anyone or commit a crime. heck ask any 13 year old and he would say the same thing.
Hey stupid people get over it I’m marrying one of them and you need to let it go please stop killing people change
you got to be one of thae most despret broads out there.
yeah you stupid bitch you must be scum of the earth just like them wasting space and air…you must be as desperate as it gets
what if it was one of your loved ones doing life in prison
If one of my “loved ones” brutally murdered someone the way the people I have listed on this page have done…I would want them to be executed for their crimes.
You’ve asked us to “stop killing people”. Wouldn’t it just be easier if people like your fiance quit killing innocent people first? Or does that simple logic evade you?
So, which one of these vile, evil, murderous men are you marrying, and who/how did he kill? Did he kidnap, beat, rape, and then stab to death an 11 year old girl? Or did he beat to death the 80 year old couple that lives next door to him?
I can’t even imagine the self-loathing and self-contempt you must feel for yourself Andrea that you would be able to ‘understand’ and marry one of these vile murderers.
I’m acvtuaaly maryying one of Jennifer Eartman’s [killers], and I’m not proud of it i know what he did was wrong, and it was un human I’m a good person marriyng him does not make me any diffrent i love him and i don’t approve what he did but only God can take our lives
ANDREA YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT! ONE OF THOSE SICK WOMEN WITH A MENTAL DISORDER WHO MARRY CONVICTED KILLERS. GOOD BLOODY LUCK TO YOU!
ALSO EXECUTING IS NOT EQUALS MURDER> EXECUTIONS HAVE EXISTED THROUGH OUT HISTORY FOR THE SPECIAL SCUMBAGS LIKE YOUR FIANCE WHO CANT LIVE WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF CIVILIZED LIFE. IF U ARE AN ANIMAL AS EVIDENCED BY YOUR ACTIONS THAN SOCIETY MUST BE RELIEVED FROM YOU. PEOPLE WHO HAVE A SOUL AND A CONSCIENCE DONT GANGRAPE AND TORTURE AND MURDER OTHERS. SO HELLO!! WAKE UP AND SMELL REALITY YOU STUPID BIMBO1
You do see the problem with your logic in the last sentence, dont’ you?
“…only God can take our lives”
You do know that your fiance “took” the lives of Jennfier Ertman and Elizabeth Pena, right? So, does that make him “God”?
Of course it doesn’t. So, obviously, MAN —and not just God— can take the life of another.
[...] Someone’s Going to Get Shot Because of Kelo v. New London In March, I bemoaned a Supreme Court decision in which Justices Kennedy, Breyer, Souter [...]
[...] urg based their decisions on International opinion. With that ruling, pieces-of-shit like Efrain Perez and Raul Villarreal will not face the death sentence that they d [...]
There is no question that these men didn’t know right from wrong when they committed the crimes. Of course they knew murder was wrong!
So what is wrong with giving them a fair and just punishment they deserve…Life with out the possibility of parole?
So much money is wasted on death sentences, its so much cheaper to house them for life. Death row ultimatly protects the inmate from population. A real tough sentence is putting them in the general population with criminals like themselfs. That’s pure pain and suffering. That would be the ultimate revenge and justice for victims. Victims are not just who these people murdered but also the murderers’ families.
Let God do the judging and provide the punishment eteranlly. The Death Penalty is not foolproof, innocent people are convicted as well that dont deserve to die. Nobody is saying that juveniles are babies or innocent. Everyone can relate to being a teenager, and everyone can also relate to not thinking out the consequences thoroughly when they are young.
I think its about time the criminal justice system ended the execution of juveniles, with any luck they will end the DP alltogether. It dosnt deter crime, it costs the tax payers a fortune, and 102 innocent people have been exonerated, and God only knows how many innocent people have been executed. At the very least one should do the research about the DP with an open mind to both sides of the issue before making judgements that will end someones life.
Andrea,
When I read what your fiance did to those two girls, I was angry and disgusted. Those boys deserve to die for what they did. As a matter of fact they would have been lucky to die through lethal injection. Elizabeth and Jennifer had to suffer!
How can you marry a monster? Are you fucking crazy? What is wrong with you? If you are a good person, then find someone normal to spend your life with. Besides, he is in prison (and will hopefully stay there and rot) so how are you going to be with him? Don’t be stupid, go on with your life and get some self-esteem so that you can find a human to marry!
[...] Does Florida have the death penalty? I hope the 18 year old kid gets death for this crime — he deserves no less. How can you possibley “rehabilitate” someone who has that kind of evil within them (answer: you can’t). And since the SCOTUS has ruled that murderers and rapists who committed their crimes while they were under the age of 18 cannot be put to death, I hope that the 17 year-old kid gets plunger-raped in prison everyday for the rest of his life. [...]
Acvtuaaly, Maryying, Eartman’s, Un human, Diffrent? Yes Andrea, you may be a good person but you are obviously not a very intelligent one. Although we all pretty much realized that when you so proudly declared that you are MARRYING one of the killers. Sweetie, word of advice: Go back to school, get an education and get a job. Do something to heighten you lack of self esteem, set some goals for Christ’s sake. This may make you feel a little better about yourself, and you won’t go around PROUDLY stating that you are marrying a killer. Damn.
who cares what they all think andrea it’s your life and anyone can be rehabilitated. you just need to realize what kind of life ur going to live and how to handle his execution. if you can handle it
you a stupid broad too.
I think that if you willingly take someone’s life that you should be sentenced to death. I believe that a 16-17 year old is most capable knowing what they did was right or wrong. People can only be rehabilitated only if they want the help. So basically I am saying an eye for an eye.
To Andrea,
The only part I agree with is God is the only one who should take life, but the rest of your proclamation is pure ignorance. I hope you don’t have children to pass your ignorance to. Your fiance is still alive whether he’s in prision, he still lives and breaths, but Jennifer and Elizabeth stopped living June of 1993 due to the pure evil and hatred of your fiance. I’m completely for the death penalty especailly in the Eartman/Pena case. They all deserve to meet their maker, not to mention I would rather waste my tax dollars putting them to death rather than waste my hard earned money keeping them alive in prision.Being able to live in prision can never amount to the pain and suffering they caused to Elizabeth Pena, Jennifer Eartman and to their friends and family. How do you live with yourself knowing that you support such a vile murderer?
I can’t believe the callousness of you Andrea. You didn’t even know these girls, my friends, friends of my family and I dated the brother of one of these killers. I’d meet up with Joe at Tradewinds. You weren’t there, you didn’t see the pain we all went through, their bodies mutilated, beaten, degraded, as if nothing more than waste. They were living, vibrant young girls, with a bright future. It was bad enough for me to have to relive this after 14yrs, to see the families denied justice. I think you are just one of those people who try and stirl up something. Well you’ve stirred up some deep wounds. They deserve to DIE. If it could be the same way they killed Jennifer and Elizabeth, I would be the one stomping on one of their throats and yelling Die bitch. They don’t deserve any mercy, in the end I know that God will grant them the hell they deserve. My god, you sicken me.
I am for the death penalty for those who willingly forget to hear God’s voice telling an almost murderer to stop and let someone live, because the prestige of being a gang member was more appealing than helping Elizabeth Pena and Jennifer Ertman to get home safely. I pray that those individuals like Raul Villarreal who was to young for the death penalty, will spend the rest of his life in prison getting back what he deserves. For those that did not know these two young girls, I will give you a condensed version of their live.
I never had the distinct pleasure of meeting Jennifer Ertman, but I know she was a young girls with wonderful dreams of growing up, dating, going to college, and saving her innocence for the man she would someday marry.
I knew Elizabeth Pena. She was a beautiful young girl with ambitions for the future, and she was my nephew’s best friend. Elizabeth had dreams of graduating from high school, going to college, and getting married, and most importantly saving her innocence for the man she would someday marry.
Raul Villarreal, along with the other murderers have more fans fighting to save their lives from the death penalty, than those two young girls who fought desperately for their lives, and have not received anything but blame and sure insistance that these young girls derved what they got because they don’t have people defending their actions, like the thousands are defending the murderers from death.
Is this fair?
If I was not living in a nursing home at the tender age of 56, after suffering from a massive stroke, and struggling to live my life as normal as possible, I am alive, and I am expressing my opinion those those that care or don’t care. For the grace of my Gode in Heaven, I can say that my almost death, strenghthens my need to find a way to let the world know.
“The devil will get his men to serve him in hell, and the gangs will boast of their conquests, and the devil will grant them entry into Hell.”
Killing them by death penalty will be too easy on them.
Let’s just let these gang members suffer by putting them at the front lines in Iraq. Let them learn how to defend our country instead of paying to let them live and eat free at our expense. We should put a rifle in their hands, and airlift them into Bagdad, and see how quickly they wish for God’s help.
Well, Mr Bush. Instead of being concerned about this country’s Gays, you should be trying to send this country’s criminal’s to Irag.
If our soldiers are claiming war stress, why then ruin our good men when you can send the criminals to fight for their lives and ours.
Think about it. If anyone claims these thoughts to be crazy, then you should ask why not send our criminal to defend our country. They already know how to shoot and kill without regrets, and send our soldiers home.
Thank you for letting share my thoughts, and if you disagree, get in line for the trip tp hell, your name is on the list.
I must I feel a little happier to learn that the main culprit O’Brien has just been executed by Texas today. Hope that goes for the rest of the young criminals…
Have to agree with Lorettas comments 100%…. Back in 1987 I attended the funeral for a 12 year old girl who was abducted raped and then butchered by a husband and wife…..Sadly in Australia we do not have capital punishment but we do have LIFE NEVER TO BE RELEASED and thats what they got….May they rot in hell….As for the silly silly girl who claims to be marrying one of the Ertman\Pena killers Well regardless what you do with the rest of your life little girl Elizabeth and Jennifer had their dreams snuffed out ….they will never finish school..go to college ..turn 21….and get married and raise familys all thanks to your boyfriend and his gutless mates….Elizabeth and Jennifer sit at gods right hand sadly before their time but rest assured little girl your boyfrien d and the others responsible for this outrage have a special corner of HELL reserved for them and I hope they suffer the rest of this life before they get there. In closing I believe if 17 year olds are capable of crimes like this then they deserve to be treated as adults and be bloody well gotten rid of…Our world would be a better place without them
May Elizabeth Pena Jennifer Ertman and Sian Kingi rest in gods loving embrace for evermore Arohanui
Mark
By ‘stomping on their necks to ensure they were dead’ proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, these brutal murderers knew what they were doing. To save them, or offer leniency is something God should decide when they depart this earth – NOT a defense or human rights team. There are no excuses – the lot of them should have been executed for their heinous acts years ago. They’ve done nothing for society since then except drain tax-payers and break hearts of everyone involved and shocked and saddened those who read this story. EACH TIME a killer is given a chance, he/she goes on to something worse and then it’s always too late. When will we ever learn? Look at the young kid who murdered his niece and wide after Katrina. Pitiful; may God Bless the victims familes – and may the perps suffer eternally.
I meant ‘wife’ not wide above ….. but wanted to add: as for people who marry convicts and murderers in prison – strange … because while ‘married’ to death-row or LWOP inmates/murderers … you’re safe while they’re behind bars. However – your own intelligence remains behind bars at the same time and only you have the key to your own sanity. Pity? Perhaps. But that’s your choice and your loss, no-one elses. Be proud, as you claim to be, but reast assured very few others are as proud of you. Your ‘love/marriage’ is nothing more than for an acute lack of attention, depsite which – there was also attention their victims cried out for. It was muffled, then distinguished. Think about it… In my mind, if a person ‘loves and marries’ a person that has committed such a heinous crime then the (new) lover/wife condones such action. THAT’S scarier than knowing one half is behind bars!
Lindsay, you said what I wanted to say, but only Better! Thanks!
not everyone grows up in a world where they are taught not to hate. ignorance is the devil and unless you are God, you have no right to take a life.
lindsay, you are giving an opinion and its a shame you have such a small mind. You are one of thise who cant undertsand what they cant imagine going through.That’s called ignorance. God help you if anyone you ever love happens to stunn the crap out of you and your family and then you will see that there are vistims on both sides of the fence. Not all people are their biggest mistake.
I am appalled at the ruling that juveniles cant be held liable on the same level as adults if they are convicted of aggravated murder! How can a number be put on maturity?
When I was 13, I was at the mental age of 18.
Those “kids” know very well what they’re doing. Kids these days are smart. And now that they “KNOW” they won’t get a harsh punishment for committing murder, how are you going to stop them? Life in prison? How is that suffering for a crime you committed? You get a cell, a shower, food, TV, a gym, all the amenities because YOUR rights as a defendant need to be protected!!!
WHAT ABOUT THE LIVES OF THOSE MURDERED??? WHAT HAPPENED TO THEIR RIGHTS? A DOUBLE VIOLATION IF YOU ASK ME-by the killers and the law.
Why give them a 2nd chance when they didn’t consider that for the lives they took. What about those 2 girls that were raped & murdered? Did they get a 2nd chance? No — as they begged for their lives, the guys only cared about not getting caught for the rape. Intent was there, and the fact that “the bitch wouldn’t die” shows that he understood what he was doing. So why is the law so concerned with violating their constitutional rights when those girls’ rights were pulled from underneath them? UN*F*N*BELIEVABLE!!
I’m ashamed of you people who thinks that juviniles should get put to death because of murder (referring to Blake). Yes, they did do wrong buy killing, but that does not mean they should be killed too. Most juvenile murder cases are accidental. Do you know that a kid as young as the age of 10, can now be tried as adults?? So, you’re saying that a 10 year old who commited murder should be put to death? Come on people, do you not have any sympathy for these juveniles committed with murder? Yeah, some of them know that killing is wrong, but are they clearly informed about the consequences of the crime? Maybe yes and maybe no. Besides, these juveniles are being influenced by gangs and violent movies. If you wanna blame someone for their actions, blame the gangs and blame the directors and producers of those violent crime movies. And about the death penalty for others, it’s wrong. Believe or not, by killings those who killed others, makes us murderers too. If you want someone to suffer for killing someone you know, then giving them the death penalty is cetainly not the way to do it. By giving them the death penalty, we’re just giving them the easy way out from suffering. Why make them suffer for only a few months or years, when you can make them suffer for the rest of their living lives?? The death penalty is only another cause for violence, it does not stop violence. The death penalty is suppose to stop others from killing right? Wail, if that’s the case, then why are people still killing? I’m postively sure that most murderers are aware of the death penalty, but they go ahead and kill anways… Therefore, the death penalty is really no helpin trying to stop violence.
[...] One blogger pointed out that the Supreme Court, which was thinking of letting Jose Medellin get away with this murder on the grounds of insufficient consular access, had already let two of his accomplices in the same rapes and murders escape the death penalty because they were under 18 at the time of the murder. [...]
Anonymous Writer wrote this -
Well I’m sorry, but two juvenile girls got put to death because of murder…and they had no judge, jury, trial or chance of a last minute repreive.
Then she (I’m assuming from the glaring mistakes in her English it’s another Eurotrash Thughugger) goes on to lay the finger of culpability onto Hollywood…that’s right, cos everytime I saw Texas Chainsaw Massacre I wanted to go straight out and buy a chainsaw and cut up a load of people with it!
Then this little gem!
Oh, great! Does that mean that by supporting the death penalty for these wretched creatures we are classified as murderers too…if that’s the case can we all expect to be befriended by sadistic psycho penpals then???
Although I do agree with her on one point in a way, and that by administering them with a LI they are getting the easy way out, but I guess that just goes someway to showing the compassionate nature of a normal law-abiding society, to deal with killers in a humane fashion not afforded to their victims. Anyhow, there must be a whole load of mental torture in knowing the exact time they will ooze off this planet in a trail of slime!
And as a deterrent I think the DP is working absolutely fine. According to unofficial figures – 10 out of 10 people given the Death Penalty were deemed least likely to reoffend. Good day to you!!!
Damn…really got the use of those block quotes all wrong in the above comment – to which I also forgot to put my name to, before any of the whining antis come on saying how moralistic I am behind an anonymous name!!!
[Editor's Note: Darren, I fixed the previous comment for you.]
Punishing murder with murder seems a little Ironic but so it goes I guess.
I do however find it interesting the way you have revealed some of the victims and criminals races yet not others. Any reason for this?
I see victims labelled as white and Asian and criminals as black.
No black victims mentioned and no non-black criminals.
One could almost get the impression that all criminals are black and all of their victms are White and Asian, though im sure that was not your intention.
Very balanced piece of reporting, well done!
No, executing murderers is lawful and just.
Sorry to disappoint you but the descriptions are simply the “summary of incident†off of the tdcj website. You’ll have to find racism elsewhere. Twit.
I just want to say first that i am very familar with the Ertman/Pena murders bcause i am a pen pal of one and i have to say that I DO NOT approve of what Peter and the rest did but I do believe that he has changed and I do not think that he should die….There are many people quick to pass judgement and say that someone deserves to die, no one deserves to die that is God’s choice not man kinds
So, Patricia…did Jennifer and Elizabeth die at the hands of God, or by the hands of your penpal? Was it God’s choice to kill those girls, or was it those subhuman “men”?
If they can choose to kill people, the State can choose to do the same to them as punishment.
Well just a couple weeks ago I came upon the case of Efrain Perez he was one of the attackers in the Jennifer and Elizabeth murder ..I think what they did at such a young age is sick and it makes the world a ugly place they’re actions where cruel and evil and they had a choice after the rape and beatings to let them go but they all made the choose to commit murder after commiting assault Do they deserve to die is the big question ..the answer to me is simple yes most of them where months away from becoming adults ..adults according to the law is the age of 18 but sadly now it seems the law is giving 17 old boys green light to go around raping and killing innocent girls because as long as there not 18 they will get away with it ..for the friends and families of these young girls I would like to say am sorry the Justice system failed you in some ways and robbed you of the closure of watching them die but i have studied alot of the laws of prison among inmates and if there one things they hate is rapist am sure all of the attackers have felt first hand what its like to be beaten and raped against there wills and I hope everytime it happens to them they cry and feel shameful,afraid,hopeless and alone and that they remember they had a choose and they made the choice to take two lifes and now they have the rest of there lifes to think about that but one thing is for sure non of them will ever know heaven..
I meant to put choice where you will read choose ….sorry my bad
Just saw on the news today that President Bush wants Medellin freed, due to a suit won by the Mexican Govt in the Hague. I guess Mr. Bush thinks that US laws should be interpreted by international courts. Bush needs to realize that he has no constitutional authority in this matter and stay the hell out of it. (Can’t believe I voted for this idiot.)
That just goes to show the direction this country is heading. People are free to come here illegally to rape and murder our citizens. But God forbid we seek justice. Even our own Federal Government is a disgrace. It doesn’t matter which party they are in…….they no longer represent the AMERICAN people. I could easily write a 10 page paper on this subjet, but I encourage ALL of you to Google “north american union” It’s not propaganda or conspiracy theories. It is our destiny and there is nothing “we the people” can do about it.
They should execute him, then deport his body back to Mexico. His braindead girlfriend can go rot in the Mexico that he is so proud of.
Instead of leathal injection for Pena-Ertman killers, how about putting a belt around their necks and pulling! (at least til it breaks)It’s time to take out the trash!
After reading this blog, and knowing what these monsters did to those two young girls, I can only ask myself why these pieces of garbage are still breathing, much less given life sentences. I really hope that Perez & Villareal are tortured by the general population of the prison. They were allowed to live, the two girls never got to continue their lives, I just hope that their prison time is sheer hell, that they get raped and beaten every day.
It is also pathetic that girls write to these animals, much less want to marry them, what the hell kind of life is that, I guess that is the best that they can do, Andrea is one sick person, proud to marry a rapist and a killer, she must be one desperate person.
Ron
I understand the point of vieuw from those guys who are against the death penalty . And i also understand the other point of view. But i think it is also important to look at those peole who have been innocent and were also killed. Dont you think, that ist is very dangerous to sent those people to death without having proved their innocence in all possible ways? My personal opinion is that instead of leaving a bad or evil paroles on a person that makes him or her automaticlly guilty the duty of a country must be to prove the innocence of their citizen. Please think about that!
Annika
How in the hell can you show that killing is wrong with killing?Plus you always have to see the situations and the life before it happened…eversince death penalty exists nothing has changed ya´ll need to work on changing the system in the states so people have opportunities!!!How many people dies innocent by the hand of the state!!??How you gonna make that up to their family???Never!!!guilty of killing so now what happens to those who killed them?Nothing!
Man sad so sad we don’t have death penalty and we have not so many crimes here so re-think the system!
I love him I’m married to him now and I’m happier than ever he’s great. No I’m not ok for what he did girls should have not been killed that way they were innocent and had a whole life ahead of them, but I love him and he desserves a chance, to prove he can fit into society and to have a family.
Sincerely,
Andrea
You dont love him,you dont know him.Your just another sorry ass person trying to get attention by marrying an inmate.
Andrea,
It’s great that you are so happy now that you are married to him, just out of curiosity, who is ” him “, which one of the four did you marry ?
How is he so great to you, and how can he fit into society being in prison and all, especially if he is on Death Row.
Ron
who do you think it is? since you claim to know them so well chump…..
You know it pisses me off that people like you are so full of hate and ignorance I already said how bad I felt for what happened to those girls and how I don’t agree with my husband being involved in this heinious crime, and how it could have been any of my loved ones but there’s nothing I could do now I fell in love with him after that horrible crime and it’s already done my condolences are always with those two beautiful girls parents …. I believe he is a changed man and that if he ever got the chance to come out and be with me we would be real happy together, and no I dont have low self esteem I’m a very pretty girl, and I have a great job i have a head on my shoulders and I’ve done alot of good things for people as well, I believe God changes people and that only he can take your life away my husband is a great man with a big heart and were going to fight the system till the end
well people thats ok cus this stupid girl(andrea)anit gonna get any from who ever the fuck she married. he just wants your dum ass to send him money. ”Ohh i luv him…” i wish i knew who u were so i can spit in your face. God forbid u have a daughter an it never happens to you. u do have low self esteem. I hope hes some ones bitch in there. see how he likes it in the ass and his mouth. Hahaaaa
CHUMP ?
Actually, I don’t really care which one of the sub human beings you married, it just seems like a pretty stupid decision to get involved with a man who rapes and kills children.
You are a very pretty girl with a head on your shoulder, why would you choose this kind of life, why would you even consider writing to a killer on death row, why not seek out a normal relationship with someone you could be with, hold hands, go to movies together, have children to love, and all the other great things you can have in a relationship . You feel bad for what he did to those two girls, how does he feel about it, does he have any remourse ?
I am not full of hate, and most certainly not ignorant, I just do not have any use for people who rape and kill innocent teenagers, then go around and brag about it, not a very smart decision.
Your husband is a great man with a big heart, how does one change so much sitting in a cell on death row since he was 18 years old, what has he done to make him a great man ?
What do your parents, family, friends think of your decision, are they behind you and accept your marriage ?
I am not trying to be mean to you, I just hope that you realise what you have decided with your life, your chances of him getting out of prison are not very likely, so what have you got to look forward to, seeing him a few times, as I presume you are from Europe, and then having to witness his execution ?
And by the way, I never claimed to know any of these guys, only what I have read about the case.
I wish you luck with your life.
Ron
I cant for th life of me understand you Andrea!!! Yeah, what a fullfilled married life you are going to have eh? These animals dont deserve to be able to marry or even get visits!!!! They shoudnt even be alive!! Hey, I atcvtlly sorry… ACTUALLY think you guys deserve each other. Your no diffrnt sorry DIFFERENT. Mindless F**KS!!!! Fight the system all the way. Fight what? They got caught and convicted and he IS going to die!! Maybe not next year or the year after that but the clock is ticking and that day is inevitible. Have a nice life with your husband. Or lack of!!! HA!
Heather,
Well said, maybe Andrea will wake up and realise exactly what is going on with her life, it is a no win situation for sure. Imagine being married and never even holding hands with your husband, no contact whatsoever, what kind of relationship is that. You are right, death row inmates should not be allowed to marry, it just doesn’t make sense.
Ron
Thank you Darren, I agree with everything you stated.
People, ignore the ignorant Andrea. She has so much time on her hands because she has no life. Hah, I’d like to see “pretty” – I’m willing to bet that this is the best she could do. And the killer will certainly not turn anything away that will better his lot in
life/prison.
Anyone who takes a life deserves the Death Penalty. I’m sick of my tax dollars paying for someone in prison.
I’M NOT HERE TO PROVE THAT I’M PRETTY ..UGLY.. WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT I KNOW WHAT I AM AND WHO I AM I DON’T NEED ANYONE TO RE ASSURE ME HOW PRETTY I AM.. WHAT I HAVE AND DON’T HAVE…ANYWAYZ RON THANK YOU FOR THE MATURE COMMENT HEATHER I HAVE A LIFE THE ONE THAT DOESN’T OBIOUSLY IS U SINCE U FEED YOUR LIFE OF OTHERS HAPPINESS AND UNHAPPINESS HAHA AND HAVE TO GIVE YOUR WORTHLESS OPINIONS TO THE WORLD LIKE WE CARE SHUB THEM UP WHEREVER THEY FIT AND HOPEFULLY FIND YOURSELF A MAN YOUR PROBABLY ONE OF THOSE NOT EVEN A PRISONER WOULD MARRY….SORRY BUT THIS IS MY LIFE NOT YOURS DON’T WANN A HEAR DONT COME TO BLOGS LIKE THIS ONE..
How low is your self esteem when you have to marry a convicted killer. ……You are also too dumb to understand that. These are senseless murders of young girls full of life and promise. Not a crime of passion but a calculated sport killing. These men are hateful killers who have no place on this planet. May God have mercy on the young souls, because we sure as hell ain’t. I would prefer a public stoning to death… that would be much more appropriate.
“DEATH BE UPON THE SORRY FOOLS, AND MAY THERE MINDS BE TORTURED IN THE MINUTES OF WAIT”
Nothing will stop it, and I am laughing every minute I hear them plead for mercy……..HeeHeeHee!! APPEAL DENIED
APPEAL DENIED
APPEAL DENIED
APPEAL DENIED
APPEAL DENIED…….HAHA HAHAHAH!!!!
I am not here to judge or convince anyone to take someone’s side.
First of all, Most of these inmates in death row have had enough time to think and realize what they did was wrong. And they are paying hard being locked in a small cell for what they did. I was pen pal with Jose Medellin a couple of years ago but not anymore, and he seemed mature. He has realized what he did was wrong but there’s nothing he can do to go back in time and change the past. The conditions that he lives, makes him realize all the bad he caused to these girls’ families. People commit errors and these guys are paying for this.
Now, ANDREA, could you please say which guy you married? I know Jose’s brother is in prison too.
Finally, having a pen pal doesn’t make you have low self esteem, at that time I did it because I visited a website ccadp.org and they encourage people to write to inmates to give a litte shine to their lives as they already have no life.
ANDREA, I don’t think you have self esteem either, you married a person who is completely different from what he was years ago and you fell in love of this new person.
News
Just read in the Orlando Sentinel newspaper :
Supreme court upholds Kentucky’s use of lethal injections.
Guess that’s the end of that !!!
From the Houston Chronicle: Harris County gets ready to execute 6 killers
Looks like Jose will be executed , two down, one to go.
How soon will Peter Cantu follow him ?
The other two will rot their lives away in jail , that is if some inmate doesn’t kill the child rapists.
Where is Andrea, she last posted on March 5th , if her wonderful husband is Jose , she is likely coming to Texas soon to watch him get the needle.
May Jennifer and Elizabeth rest in peace.
Today’s Houston Chronicle states that an execution date of August 5th has been set for Jose Medellin.
The child rapist and murderer will finally pay for the torture inflicted on the two young girls, it’s about time !
Say goodnight Jose.
I live in a state that has no capital punishment law. When it is proven beyond resonable doubt. That heinous murder was committed as is in this case I’m all for the death penalty.
To the female wanting to marry inmate. I think it’s a good thing. If he was just sitting in the death row he might want to “end it” get it over with.
With a female writing and possibly visiting him. Now he’ll have regret he’ll want to live. He’ll wish and prey not to die.
He’ll go to his death crying. GREAT !!
Rest in peace Jennifer and Elizabeth
yea Andrea, what happened to you?? Hope you have come to your senses about being married to a MONSTER!! Really, what kind of life can you have with someone that is doing life in prison? Open your eyes look at the crime he committed and think, does he have a chance to come out again? NO BABY GIRL HE DOESN’T! And I am gald he can’t come out to have children with you cause he will do this to his child. I was naive like you and did what you did marry someone in prison. It took me 7 years to realize I was never going to have a normal marriege, or husband the way I deserved. It doesn’t make you a bad person because you married someone that comitted an evil crime, it just makes you look stupid and ignorant in others eyes. I hope you come to your senses soon!! Please stop saying that only god can take a life, but yet you married someone that took 2 lives…. what do you know about god?????
You still have time to get out, unlike your husband, the rest of his time will be where he is at!!!!!
Angel,
Very well said , I hope Andrea will get something from your message.
I am glad that you got out of your situation , it really is not a normal way of life , there is no future in it.
If Andrea is married to Medellin or Cantu , she won’t have to worry about getting out of her situation , if the state of Texas has it’s way , she will soon be a widow , I just hope that she does not suffer too much over losing her husband !
I hope that you are happy in your life.
You know, I have been reading about Death Row Inmates complaining about not having a television to watch, or how they are locked in their cells for 22 hours a day. Th efact of the matter is they shouldn’t have that right, since their victims didn’t have the right to have their life taken from them by some evil maniac walking the face of this earth. Now don’t get me wrong I am not for the death penalty, but I am not for taking a human life like all of these death row inmates have done. When they commit a hedious crime they loose the rights they had. They shouldn’t even have the right to marry anyone while they are in prison. Has anyone heard from Andrea?
On the website for TDCJ , scheduled executions , it shows Medellin to be executed August 5th.
I can’t imagine how that must feel , knowing the date and time of your death , and waiting around for it to happen.
He really made a bad decision when he was young , and now he will have to pay for it with his life.
Still no word from Andrea , I wonder if Jose is her husband !!!
Peace to the families of Jennifer and Elizabeth.
I hope she came to her senses and realized this was not the life she wanted to live. Maybe a real man came to rescue her.
Where is Andrea , have not heard a word since March 5th , I suspect she was married to Jose the rapist and murderer. Now that Jose has a date with the gurney , she must be in mourning and or hiding.
Maybe she has seen the light after reading the post from Angel , how ridiculous it is to marry a prisoner , there really is no future in it.
If in fact it is Jose , what happens now , does she go to Texas and witness her wonderful husband’s execution ?
Nobody should bring this upon themselves , she knew that he was going to pay for the brutal deaths of those two young girls , it’s called justice , you just can not rape and murder people and get away with it , sooner or later you have to pay the price. I hope for her sake that she is O.K. , people learn from their mistakes , if not , she can always find another D.R. inmate to marry again , Peter Cantu still does not have a date with the needle.
I will apologize in advance for the length of this. I just finished reading Pure Murder, the book written about these murders. I came across your site while searching for up to date info. I felt I needed to say something.
The author of the book described the rapes and murders of Jennifer and Elizabeth in detail. Reading those pages was difficult. I have read several true crime stories, but this time I became quite upset, I had a horrible uneasy feeling. It’s been two days, and I still can’t get what they did out of my head. What those animals did to those girls was horrific. I can’t even imagine having to go though something like that. Then witnesses said they were “giggling like school girls” and “laughing so hard they were crying”. That shows absolutely no remorse for what they had just done. All six of these offenders deserve the death penalty.
I can’t believe Perez and Villarreal will be spared because they were 6 months and 4 months away from turning 18. I’m surprised Cantu hasn’t been commuted to life since he was 3 days away from turning 18 when the murders were committed. I don’t believe someone will mature that much in 4 to 6 months. They committed an adult crime and should be punished as such.
As for Andrea, she needs to get a copy of the book and read what her husband did. I don’t care who she thinks he is now; he tortured those beautiful, vibrant girls. They begged for their lives and all they got in return is more pain. They were humiliated they were, raped in every way possible, they were strangled, kicked, stomped on and then left to decay. I read some where that Perez and Villarreal will be eligible for parole in 2029.
I hope the parole board will read the details of these crimes and keep them in for life.
Thank you for your time and for allowing me to vent.
Connie,
I can feel the pain that you felt reading Pure Murder , this is one of the most horrific crimes ever. All six of those sub human scumbags should have been put to death long ago. There never was any question of their guilt , the police had confessions from all of them.
I do not think that Perez or Villareal will ever make parole , based on the crime , the chances are not likely.
Death row inmates should not be allowed to correspond with the outside world , much less being allowed to marry.
Women like Andrea , who claims that her husband is such a wonderful person , must have absolutely zero self esteem.
Derrick O’Brien ,who was the first of these animals to be executed , was also married while on the row. His wife Noora also proclaimed how wonderful and intelligent he was; she ended up sobbing while witnessing his execution. She then claimed that she would write a book about this wonderful, caring, thoughtful, person that he was. This wonderful man raped and murdered three girls , there was one before Elizabeth and Jennifer.
Andrea also claims to be so happy now that she married a child rapist and killer. For the life of me I will never understand women seeking death row inmates to marry; they know the eventual fate that lies around the corner; it is just asking for a big let down. I guess they are not confident enough to be with a real person. They marry someone that they will never even get to touch , hug , kiss , go to a movie , have children , makes no sense to me.
Thank you for the info on the book , I was not aware that it was even out there , not sure if I want to read it after your brief review.
Take care.
Ron,
I’m not sure if I would recommend the book or not. It’s not only the actual murders and rapes that had me mad. The author goes into the bio for each person involved and to read all the times some of these individuals were arrested and released is mind baffling. Also, they all showed signs of trouble. Some more than others, but I feel that if parents, school personnel and authorities would have paid closer attention, these girls might still be alive and raising their own children. I know there is evil out there, we hear about it every day, but to read about the horrible acts these girls had to endure brings a different perspective. I have to admit that I used to be completely for the death penalty, but as I’ve gotten older, I have not been so strong about it. I still feel that when there is no doubt about a person’s guilt, yes they should be put to death. As with this case. These guys bragged about what they had done and then confessed to the crimes. I know they tried to blame each other, but that didn’t work since the Joe Medellin’s younger brother, testified against all of them. He wouldn’t answer questions at his brother’s trial, but according to his testimony at the other trials, his brother was a willing participant. I will leave it up to you, if you want to read the book. Maybe with a little warning, the actual crimes won’t be so hard to read about. You will have been able to prepare yourself.
Take Care
Connie,
Once again , thank you for the update on the book , it really is a shame that these animals were not put away before that terrible night , Jennifer and Elizabeth might well be raising their own children right now.
I can’t imagine how these kids could even think of such a horrendous crime , much less do it all together , was there not one of them present with a brain who could have stopped them ?
It is interesting where you mentioned that they all tried to blame each other , yet they all took part in the rapes and murder.
I have decided to order the book , I have read enough about this case on the inter net , I really do not think anything else will shock me too much , I actually would like to get into the minds of these pathetic pieces of garbage , try to figure out how they could commit such a terrible crime.
Is there any mention of the younger Medellin , how is his prison life , is he in the general population or isolated from the other prisoners ?
Have a great day.
I, too, just found this website and am almost finished reading the book about the crimes, Pure Murder. These guys most definately deserve the dealth penatly and it is sad that 2 were taken off death row. I hope they get the justice they deserve like Jeffrey Daumer did. Andrea, I assume, is quite embarrased at marrying a convicted childer killer and rapist and that is why she won’t admit to who her husband is. I would guess Medellin since she hasn’t seemed to surface since he was given his execution date. This crime happened in 1994 and these guys should have been put to death long ago. My heart goes out the victims’ familes and I hope that Medellin does see his day on August 5. Next down, Peter Cantu!!!
I bought the book ” Pure Murder “, other than the holocaust stories , nothing I have read left me so angry. These boys were sub human , monsters , they deserve to die for what they did to the two beautiful , young girls.
Their attitudes were despicable , laughing , and joking about taking these precious lives , these scumbags don’t deserve to live , they should have been executed long ago.
I can’t imagine the fear and pain Jennifer and Elizabeth went through during that hour , then having these animals strangle them to death. Lethal injection is too easy for them , at least they have been locked up for all these years and not being able to enjoy the fruits of life.
As for the women who marry these creatures , this I do not understand , as Connie mentioned , Andrea should read the book and see what her wonderful husband did , and how he acted after the crime. To this day they don’t show any remorse for their actions , may they rot in hell. Andrea , wake up and get a life , these idiots don’t deserve to have pen pals and be married !
Ron,
I can tell you feel exactly the way I did after reading that book. I still feel that way. There are times when I’m quiet and what happened to Elizabeth and Jennifer will creep back into my mind. It is so hard for me to understand how any human could torture another that way. Then after they do, act like it’s nothing. Like you said, none of them showed any remorse. Except for O’Brien, at the very end, none of them have even publicly said they did wrong and truly regret it. They all feel as if it was a small error they made in their youth that should have been forgiven by now. I feel that the two brothers that left knowing these girls were in trouble should have been punished too. They knew what was going to happen and did nothing, didn’t even call the cops. I feel all of them should die for what they did. I’m sure they are on the receiving end of the rapes now. At least I hope they are. Even if they are, I don’t feel they will get the reality of what they did. They all live in their own demented worlds. They whine about not have a tv in their cells, and other freedoms. They don’t deserve any freedoms especially not to be able to marry. I have always thought that was an outrage. You commit a crime, you shouldn’t be allowed to have anything except a cell and food. I completely agree with you, may they rot in hell.
Connie
Hi Connie,
You are exactly right , I felt exactly as you did , and I am sure that anyone who reads this book will echo our feelings and grief for the girls.
I also agree about the Sandoval brothers , they should have been punished for not doing anything ,despite hearing the girls call for help.
Had they have called the police , Jennifer and Elizabeth might be alive today.
As for O’Brien showing remorse at the end , was it real or just the fact he knew he was going to die and his victims family were watching him ?
Getting back to the novel , these thugs were bad news from very early on in their lives , hoodlums acting like big tough guys , they were even worse when together acting as bullies. It’s strange that they were all quite short in height , Medellin 5’5″ , Cantu 5,6″ , O’Brien 5,8″ , I also believe that Perez was even shorter. My guess , they had that small man complex !
They do not deserve any rights , they are worthless pieces of shit ( please excuse the language ) , no respect for life. They are poster boys for the death penalty , the only thing they deserve is what’s coming to them on the gurney.
Do you sense a little anger still brewing inside of me !!!!
I also can’t imagine the pain this must have caused to their families , although the parents should accept some of the blame , at 17 – 18 years old , I would have shipped them off to Marine Corp boot camp , that would maybe straighten them out.
I love their pen pal requests , they are meek little angels ,who like you said , made a mistake when they were young , now they are all grown up on death row, wiser than ever. Next thing you know sick groupies are writing to them , even marrying these vial creatures.
Rest in peace Jennifer & Elizabeth.
Take care and have a great day.
Wow, I had no idea that Perez and Villareal will be eligible for parole! What kind of shit is that? They got their death sentences commuted, ok. I got it. I am not comfortable with death penalty for minors in any case. But shouldnt they get LWOP in that case?
And I wonder if thats the issue with Cantu. I mean why hasnt he been executed yet? He was the first one convicted.
I too just finished Pure Murder, and it left me feeling the same way as you guys. Royally pissed off, and quite disturbed. I sure hope the victims families dont read the book, because its just that bad. They sure dont need to relive that.
Melissa,
I recently read that Peter Cantu still has one last appeal pending , once it is denied he will get his execution date. Let him be the last to go , maybe the two before him will make him sweat it out.
Due to the unspeakable brutality associated with these murders , it is not likely that those two monsters will ever see parole , they will rot their lives away in prison.
Take care.
I have just found this site and read all the comments. Elizabeth and Jennifer were beautiful girls and their futures were stolen when they died in misery, humiliation and pain. Absolutely horrendous and unbearable and words ARE inadequate to describe how I feel when I think of what they suffered.
I have known Efrain Perez for 11 or 12 years. It is hard for me to reconcile the person I know with the person that perpetrated this horrific crime. That it is the same person is certain, but I do think the person has changed as he has grown older in prison. Not innocent and never will be, but changed nonetheless. I want to clarify a couple of points to some of the contributors. He has never whined or complained and has always been respectful and polite to me (I am not a young girl but old enough to be his mother). I believe the reason he did not get LWOP is that, at that time his sentence was commuted, TDCJ did not have that option. It was either death or a life sentence with the opportunity for parole. I think Texas now has a LWOP option. I do not think Efrain or Raul Villareal will ever be granted parole because of the horrific nature of the crime. Oh, and he is not short!
I am terribly saddened at all this. I think it is also a tragedy that Efrain and his co-defendants lives were finished on that dreadful evening. Yes, of course, they ruined their own lives and (of course) they ARE still alive. However, with different upbringings ALL these young people could have been working and raising families. That is a tragedy. Surely we should be working for a future where young people don’t get high on weed and booze and don’t run in gangs – where teenagers respect each other and don’t maim and kill.
What I am surprised about is that there is so much VENOM here. Strangers are spitting hatred at each other. Of course bitter things will continue to be said. The crime was unspeakable. But the name calling and nastiness does not help. Reasoned and reasonable debate is a good thing. Surely violent outbursts amongst ourselves surely contributes to the violence we unfortunately live with.
are you still here and around?
i would LOVE to speak with you if i could….
please email me at [email protected]
thank you SO much!
LVS,
I respect your comments regarding Efrain , yes , he may have changed and grown up over the last 15 years or so. However , for those of us who do not write to him , just the sheer brutality of the crime leaves us to judge these five individuals. Lots of people have had shitty upbringings , it is no excuse for what these boys did , to murder the two girls , then laugh , joke , and brag about it shows me no regard for human life. Yes , they ruined their lives that dreadful evening , but what about their victims , they took two young , vibrant lives , innocent girls walking home ! Efrain can live the rest of his life , Jennifer & Elizabeth died a horrible death that evening.
Does Efrain show any remourse for what he did , from what I have read , it seems not. If I were him , I could not live with myself , I would have so much guilt and remourse , I would want to die !
By the way , have you read Pure Murder by Corey Mitchell , these boys were evil from the gitgo , it was a matter of time before this happened , and I believe that if they were not caught , it would have happened again , maybe even more brutal.
Ron
Please dont think that I dismiss for one moment what happened to Elizabeth and Jennifer. I do not. They are foremost in my mind when I talk about this and I am not in the business of making excuses for anyone. That is not what my post was about.
I am not an apologist for anyone.
However, it seems that no-one ever considers the possibility that a person can change. That denies the chance that a person can come to a realisation of the terrible thing they have done. I have met Efrain many times and I know he has remorse. I am aware this will mean nothing to all those baying for blood and as I say I am not an apologist for anyone.
What I wanted to do was highlight the dismay I feel at some of the venomous posts I have read. People taunting other people and jeering about gurneys and needles is sick too, surely.
We should all be attempting to keep ourselves out of the gutter and not join the criminals down in it.
Respectfully.
Ron I forgot to answer your question.
No, I have not read Pure Murder, although have read plenty about the case and know that these boys were in trouble with the law before this crime. I expect I will read it.
And yes, you are right when you say that a rotten or dysfunctional upbringing is no excuse for law breaking of any sort. But mixed with drugs, drink and gangs a rotten upbringing CAN be a toxic mixture for some young people. Not an excuse, just a fact.
LVS,
Your compassion for the girls is evident in the opening statement on your original post , I never thought for a moment that you dismissed what happened to them. You also have not made any excuses for anyone involved in this case.
You seem to be a very caring , compassionate , person who understands both sides of the fence. You are a friend of Efrain and believe that he is a much better person now than he was at the tender age of seventeen. You are right about the venomous posts on this blog , however considering the unthinkable brutality of this crime , people want to see these boys suffer as did Jennifer and Elizabeth.
After reading Pure Murder , I never in my life felt such anger , this was not just murder , they tortured those girls , they kicked and stomped on them , this was a pack of wolves beating on these girls.
In the book , Efrain was not the leader of this sick group of boys , rather a follower , yet he should have known that O’Brien , Cantu , and Medellin would eventually lead him down the wrong path. Those three were the real bad seeds of this gang , they do not deserve any pity whatsoever.
Another question for you , you do not have to answer if you do not want to ! You say that you know Efrain has remorse , has he actually said this to you , or is it just how you feel ?
Take care
Hi Ron
I knew Efrain before I knew what he had been involved in but I know what those boys did. When I researched and discovered what happened that night I actually shook and felt ill. It was sickening and brutal and hard to believe that anyone could do that to those who should have been their friends!! Their ages were similar within two or three years. Kids killing kids. A pack mentality and something very terrifying. We still see this pack mentality everywhere we turn, even on web comment pages.
I guess because I already knew Efrain I didn’t feel anger so much as horror and overwhelming sadness and pity. I do, however, believe in the possibility of redemption – for some if not all. I guess that depends on what there is at the root of the person.
To answer your question about remorse – I was referring to something Efrain said to me some years ago when he was still on death row. I have spoken to other murderers, who say either that they were wrongly convicted and entirely innocent or had their human rights violated. They lied.
Efrain has never once whined and cried ‘unfair unfair’. Not to me – and I know him pretty well. Contrary to opinion he is not in general population but in his cell 23 hours just as he was on death row. He has never asked me for anything.
I have not yet read that book but do know the ringleader was Peter Cantu. His appeals will run out. Sean O’Brian has gone and Jose Medellin will soon be gone. Who knows about their remorse, if any. I can only speak about the man I know.
What happened that night, to so many people directly and indirectly, is a complete and utter tragedy which saddens me to the bottom of my heart. It always will.
regards and take care
Hi LVS,
If what you read on the inter net about this case made you ill , I strongly suggest that you do not read ” Pure Murder ” , the hour that these guys were assaulting the girls is very detailed , a minute by minute description , it is very brutal. The girls begged for their lives , yet all they got was more pain. The worst of the bunch was Medellin , this guy was a complete animal followed closely by O’Brien and Cantu.
It is still beyond me that these kids could let this go on as it did , not one of the five did anything to try and stop it , they laughed like school girls the whole while , they shouted encouragement to each other , all the while calling the girls bitches , whores , and much worse ! Then they go to Peter’s brother’s house and brag to him and his sixteen year old wife about what had happened , not too bright !
I am surprised that you say Efrain is in his cell 23 hours per day , as he was on DR , is the cell larger than DR , does he have contact visits ? I guess he would not be very safe within the general population.
I must say that your posts have got to me , I don’t feel as much anger towards Efrain , he is very lucky to have you as a friend , I just hope he appreciates it. You are a very genuine , unique person.
Take care
Hey Ron
I thank you for what you said to me.
I think I felt ill because it was a shock to learn that a person I knew had done something like that – although we all know that people on death row are not boy scouts! I had thought maybe it was a robbery that went wrong or a gang revenge thing (which would have been bad enough) but nothing had prepared me for that. I found the TDCJ page and read the unembellished, matter of fact, report and the arrest picture. Shocking.
I have actually been thinking about Corey Mitchell’s book and after your post I read some reviews and author’s comments. Something troubles me a little and I would like to run this past you.
Who was present during the entire killing who could tell Corey Mitchell what happened minute by minute? He did not speak to any of the defendants. We know that poor Jennifer and Elizabeth could not tell him. Had the other two boys left out or did they stay to watch what happened? I don’t know the answer to that. But unless they were there and watched the whole thing I can only surmise that Mr Mitchell got his account from Cantu’s brother and his 16 year old wife. But they were not there – they only heard the bragging.
Their account can only, therefore, be hearsay. That is not to say it didn’t happen, we know it did. Only that we must be careful and remember that Corey Mitchell’s job is to sell books. No-one would buy his books if he just wrote facts. His account must necessarily be embellished, and to an extent sensationalised, to attract readers to buy.
I think there is a danger that people will accept that his ‘minute by minute’ account is the ABSOLUTE truth. As an author he has taken the truth and ‘padded’ it out to make a more compelling read. That’s the business he’s in and the way he makes a living.
Perhaps we must all try to separate the sensationalism from the pure fact. Lord knows the facts are bad enough.
What do you think?
Kind regards
Ron
There I was rattling on and forgot to answer your question!
Efrain’s prison cell is regulation size, 6 x 10 or thereabouts. I have never seen the cell of course.
No, he does not get contact visits. We visit through plexiglass using a telephone – just like on dr.
I wont speculate on what would happen if Efrain was in general population because I don’t think that will occur any time soon . As far as TDCJ is concerned nothing is changed – they had to take Efrain out of Polunsky because of the court ruling but other than that it’s business as usual.
regards,
Hi LVS,
In answer to your question about the book , according to the author , the details of the rape came from a combination of things.
After the crime , when the gang members went to the home of Joe Cantu and his wife , they bragged in detail as to what had happened. Things like I did this to Jennifer , then he did that , then I did this to Elizabeth while he was doing that to her , etc., etc. Very detailed accounts of what happened.
The other two boys , the Sandoval twins had left , however they did see Medellin grab Elizabeth and throw her to the ground , as they were walking away , in my opinion they should have been tried as they did nothing to help the girls , they walked away knowing something terrible was about to happen. They did testify against the gang at the trials.
The key witnesses at the trials were Joe and his wife , along with the younger Medellin , Yunni. Yunni testified against everyone except his brother , he was the key witness as he was present throughout the rapes and murders. He was able to give an eye witness testimony with all the gruesome details. Also , the author had access to the gang’s confessions to the police , which were also very detailed , as well as the crime scenes photos.
Even if Corey Mitchell embellished the details somewhat , it was obviously a very horrific situation for the two girls. Personally I do not feel that the author padded the story to sell more books , although I could be wrong.
I still suggest that you do not read the book , in my opinion , it will really trouble you.
Have a great day.
Best regards.
Wow, I am in the middle of reading Pure Murder….and I cannot believe what I am reading is for real. These boys have no concious, or respect for anyone or anything. I have read the above posts, and the one that pisses me off the most, is the one saying how these guys had a bad child hood….I understand that, but that is no excuse for them to do what they have done. I also agree that maybe had someone intervined way before, maybe this terrible crime would have never had happend. These boys were always in trouble. Those boys were responsible for their actions.
LVS
I can understand that since you knew Efrain before you knew the facts of the case, you probably have a better chance of seeing a different side of him. For me it’s easier to see the bad side. I will always feel that he deserves to stay in prison. Actually I still believe he deserved the death penalty. They all did. The crime that was committed was horrible. I have read several books about true crime and I have also watched many TV shows about true crime. Nothing has ever upset me as the details of this crime. They never let up on Jennifer and Elizabeth. They continued to rape and torture them up until the very last. They all had a choice to make and all of them could have walked away and gotten help. But none of them even considered this. They chose to commit this crime and then laugh and carry on about it after word.
If what you say is true and Efrain is showing remorse for what he did, then why hasn’t he ever said it publicly? Even on the CCADP website he says he is “accused” of something very bad. He doesn’t say. I’m here because I DID something very bad. Granted he wrote this about 5 years ago, so I guess he could have changed since then and could now be saying the truth. If so, then he needs to change his pen pal request. It might be easier for me to believe he has grown and changed if he would admit what he did, but I don’t know. I do have to admit it is very hard to be open minded after reading the book. I wasn’t just angry at the gang, I was also very angry that no adult took action when there were obvious warning signs. I truly believe that this horrible crime might never have been committed if each one of these men were punished for previous crimes. It’s commendable that you are able to see past the viciousness of the crime and stay friends with Efrain. I would probably be a much better person if I was able to see past something so horrible.
As for your question about how the author gave such a detailed account of the crime, it’s as Ron said. The details are from the confessions as well as testimony given by Yunni Medellin. According to him, he wasn’t a perpetrator, more of an observer. He did rape one of the girls, but mainly watched what happened. That sounds like he was less guilty, but I don’t think that at all. He is just as guilty as the rest, because he didn’t help Jennifer and Elizabeth.
In closing, you should be proud that you are able to look past ones actions to see another person. If only there were more people like you in the world…
They all deserve the death penalty — even those under 18 years. When Marroquin is executed in a few weeks, they’ll be much joy. Due to their incessant whining and poor me! act, the murderers and their penpals bring it on themselves.
Hi Connie
I said that there had been an expression of remorse, in private to me, when I visited Efrain on death row but I don’t know why there has been no public statement by him. You are right that, yes, the web site entry was many years ago. The photograph is quite old.
It was an extremely brutal crime which stays in my mind. I make no excuses for anyone involved and never have done – how could I as there is no excuse? I have not read the book and may not, I don’t know. But I don’t see past the crime as if it didn’t happen. I just want to believe that, given the fact that Efrain is not to be executed, he can use the years to accept and own up publicly.
I cannot be judge and jury – the punishment is prescribed and that’s it. Perhaps there is a way forward for Efrain, only he knows what’s in his heart. Anyway, I thank you Connie for your comments.
As to a couple of the posts made by others, I just want to make a comment or two.
I did not say any of them had a bad childhood – I said with different upbringings they may have had jobs and families. By upbringings I meant they grew up going down a bad route. I don’t think that anyone would disagree with that. I never said there was an excuse for doing what they did. Please read properly before going off half cocked.
Please also read in context.
I have not made a single comment regarding the death penalty, whether pro or anti. I have never said the convictions were wrong. I have said nothing about the punishment being unfair.
I am not a pen pal.
LVS,
As for reading the book, I don’t think I would recommend it. It might be hard to separate the crime from the person you know now. Then again, since you know him now, it might not really change anything. It will however have an affect on you. I’m sure it would be hard to read something that horrific that involves someone you know. If you do choose to read the book, I would love to hear your comments.
Take care,
Hi Ron
Thanks for clarifying some points for me. I am undecided about the book but maybe I should read it so that I can see for myself what it says. I accept what you say about the sources Corey Mitchell used, such as the confessions etc. Things I have obviously never seen. Neither have I read the testimony of Medellin’s brother or the other boys. How they can live with themselves is beyond me.
Hope you are ok.
Regards
Hi Connie
I am away from home at the moment and I haven’t been able to locate a copy of the book. As you say, it would be hard to read because I do know one of the people involved. I know what they did and have read about it – but by what you and Ron have said it is very graphic.
If I get a copy of the book I will let you have my comments.
Take care
regards
Please read properly before going off half cocked.
Take your own damn advice. This is a blog with open comments. Not every post is to you or about you.
Anonymous, you are right. Not all the posts are about me and if I read it as such then I am obviously mistaken.
I am sorry that you feel the need to curse at me.
Regards
Anonymous,
Why are you being such an a-hole towards LVS , she has been open and honest from her first post on. She has never made excuses or defended anyone , what is the matter with you ?
You my friend , need serious help , you are a very angry person.
I am sorry that you feel the need to curse at me.
Your half ass apology is noted.
Why are you being such an a-hole towards LVS , she has been open and honest from her first post on. She has never made excuses or defended anyone , what is the matter with you ?
Because she was an asshole to me first. Or, do you also have a reading comprehension problem? When did this become Comments Addressing LVS’s Comments on the Pena/Ertman Murders Only thread?
You my friend , need serious help , you are a very angry person.
You my friend, need serious help, you are a very angry person, narcissistic, and have reading comprehension problems.
Ok, Can we please remember why this board was established. Nobody is condoning what these kids did. Please remember these girls, and their familys. What those boys did is beyond understanding.
Anonymous, I was not apologising to you. I said I was sorry you felt the need to curse at me.
You do yourself no favours in being so unpleasant. You have now called me an asshole. I haven’t called you any names.
Shaunie has said that we should remember Jennifer and Elizabeth and I would agree with that. Your nastiness does no credit to their memory at all.
In order to be respectful to both girls I will now close my posts.
Hi Ron and Connie
Thank you both for your constructive comments and the trading back and forth of thoughts about this horrible case. It was good to speak to you both.
Take care and be well
LVS,
Please reconsider about closing your posts , you are one of the more intelligent people on this blog , and most interesting. Just don’t pay attention to Anonymous , he/she forgets to take their meditation !
I have seen Anonymous on other blogs , no mistaking the rudeness , and extreme anger , he/she is just a very nasty person , imagine living with him/her !! ( YIKES )
I have enjoyed your posts , a very different perspective than what is usually written here , it would be a shame to see you go. I am sure that other people here feel as I do.
You also take care and be well.
Oops , I meant medication and not meditation on above post.
Sorry about that.
I knew what you meant Ron!
I had just thought it would be better if I didn’t post as I really don’t want to get into sniping with other people. Trading insults just isn’t my kind of thing.
I would be happy to carry on talking to you and was glad you took the trouble to speak up for me. Thanks. However, I will no longer respond to anyone who cannot be civil.
have a great day
LVS and Connie,
I came across this website , it is another penpal request from Efrain Perez , he says that he is now 32 years old and serving life , which would make it quite recent.
Where before he said he was accused of something very bad , on this site he states” that what has me here is a tragedy , a rape and murder. ”
Thought that this was interesting , he seems to be admitting his guilt.
Peace to Jennifer & Elizabeth.
http://www.cyberspace-inmates.com/perezef.htm
Ron, thank you for this link.
Efrain had expressed this to me, as I told you, but I am glad that he has taken this step on the web page – it is important. I do believe in redemption but this can only come once an admission of guilt is made. I have long believed that Efrain is not an intrinsically ‘evil’ person. I remain hopeful that he can go further.
Of course nothing will change the awful past and nothing can change the opinion of people. Efrain is aware of that.
Remembering the girls, always.
regards
Lvs, It is none of my business, or anyone else’s however I was wondering what the circumstances were to you knowing Efrain. If you have answered this question before, I am sorry for repeating it. I am currently reading posts, and I am not seeing if you addressed this before. Maybe I am missing it. Also I was wondering if he has discussed his case with you. Again like I said it is none of anyones business, I guess I am just despretly trying to understand more of this case. On the other hand maybe this is not for me to understand. Thanks for your time. Have a great day
Shaunie, I first came into contact with Efrain when he was 20 years old. He is now 32. The first contact came through another inmate who had passed my name on and I received a letter from Efrain.
My husband was a Chaplain for many years, some of those years being for death row in Texas. Subsequently, for death row and lock down wings in Louisiana at Angola. Through the ministry I met several inmates in Texas, Louisiana and Alabama. The only person I have wished to remain in contact with is Efrain Perez.
I have met Efrain many times but we have never discussed the case. The only time there has been any reference to it was in the comment I have referred to in my post to Ron.
Hope this tells you what you wanted to know.
Regards
Guess this means no-one has anything left to say – which is a good thing.
There is no profit in hatred. There is no victory in biting and snarling and baiting like dogs in an arena.
All we can do is learn from the horror of the past. Raise ourselves above the beasts. Live in dignity. And learn to love one another.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
LVS,
Very well said , really shows your wonderful character.
Best regards.
Thank you LVS to explaining your friendship to me. I am for the death penalty in this case. For the simple reason, that if those girls had been one of my children, I dont think i would be quite so understanding. On the other hand, I think its great that you can still try and maintain a friendship with him. Hope this finds you in good spirits.
Efrain talking about his ‘adolescent mistake’ and accusing the system of exploiting him is some form of remorse? Would he feel that murder and execution were one and the same if it was his daughter who had been raped and stomped to death?
If Efrain, Jose, etc. were truly remorseful about their actions they would accept their punishment (death) willingly. Personally I agree with the poster who stated that they should be raped and strangled themselves. For those claiming this so-called slippery-slope (“what next, executing 10-year olds”) I feel that the details in the case are what argue so strongly for the death penalty. This was not a robbery gone bad or a retaliation. This was the deliberate kidnapping, rape, and murder of 2 innocent girls followed by gloating about the act.
Hey Ron
I enjoyed talking to you – a good buddy! There is no more to say about this case. We all know the details.
It would be great if you and I could talk in another forum – you seem such a wise and intelligent guy. I really appreciate the support and sensitive debate you have given me.
Thanks so much.
Your friend
Hi LVS,
Thank you ever so much for the compliments , and I am honored to be your good buddy.
I also very much enjoyed your comments , you brought something very special to this blog , I believe that you settled everyone down somewhat , and maybe taught us all not to hate so much.
I would love to talk to you anytime , you are a very warm , caring , sensible , person , that is very evident from your posts.
Take care.
Your friend.
I went to school with a couple of these gentlemen and I can clearly remember the day I heard the news and saw their faces on the the TV screen. I was in shock and sad. I couldn’t believe that I knew these monsters. As the years have passed and I have become closer to God I have found myself in the middle. I believe in the Death Penalty or at least I think I do but sometimes I can’t bring myself to justify taking someone’s life to punish them for a life they took. Who are we to decide someone’s future? Should we leave that to God? Tomorrow “WE” will kill Jose, how will we benefit? I pray that his mother finds comfort in the word of God and that his family understands why it has to be this way.
I thought Jose was to be executed today. Why don’t you ask the killers “who are they to decide someone’s future? They decided to take two lives and destroy their own. I hope the execution is carried out as planned. As far as his appeals regarding being a Mexican and not being allowed to talk to the Mexican consulate, that is crap. You live in America and commit a crime, you take the punishment that America gives you. PERIOD.
Jose is to be executed today, as far as the appeals, his lawyers are looking for anything that can possibly delay this, just trying to buy some time.
Jose was never denied access to the Mexican consulate , as a matter of fact he never told the arresting officers that he was Mexican , this bullshit was never brought up until four years after his conviction. Had he told them that he was a Mexican citizen , he more than likely would have been informed of his rights to contact the consulate.
I just hope that Texas does not back down tonight , Jose deserves his punishment , he is a cold blooded murderer who has never shown remorse for what he and his thug friends did to those young girls.
I am willing to bet that he will not show any genuine remorse on the
gurney , during his last words. Peter Cantu is next to go !
I’m from Holland. We do not have death sentences here. I was always in favor of this. But today I red about Jose M. and the crime he commited and I have been sick about it the whole day. Suddenly I’m in favor of death penalty in this case.
He killed two girls (in a horrible way), knew about the law in Texas and now cries like a little boy because he does not want to die?? Be a man!!
The girls could not go to court for asking not te be killed.
Something else: Ron and LVS think they are really smart and other writers are not? Just because we do not agree with them?? Really smart!!
Three. He and his gang murdered three people: Patricia Lourdes Lopez, a wife and mother, and Elizabeth Pena and Jennifer Ertman. These misunderstood “yoots” liked to gang rape, humiliate, inflict pain on, and murder innocent women and girls. All five of them deserved the death penalty.
So Medellin was killed. I am for the death penalty, as a matter of fact, I have to say the lethal injection is not enough. They should go back to using the gas chamber at least. These girls were innocent, beautiful and with a full life planned ahead! Perez and Villareal SHOULD NOT be justified because of their age! NO ONE SHOULD BE JUSTIFIED for being under 18
I am in process of reading the book Pure Murder and am horrified at the crimes that these boys committed. I was not sure how I felt about the death penalty because you hear of so many people being convicted only to find out later that they are innocent (John Grisham’s The Innocent Man). In this case, however, I feel that execution is what they all deserve. I am glad that Jose Medellin was put to death and do not feel that Efrain Perez and Raul Villareal should have been exempt from the death penalty due to their age. They were adult enough to committ such terrible crimes so they should have to pay the consequences. Yuni Medellin was only 14 yrs. old when he participated in this crime. I don’t care whether he testified against the others or not, he should have received more than 40 yrs. in prison. Jennifer and Elizabeth had no choice. They are gone from this earth forever. Their killers should have the same. Lethal injection is too nice of a punishment for these dirt bags. They raped, tortured, and brutally murdered these two innocent girls. They should have the same or worse done to them.
I have a local jail ministry~~not prison. LVS I really think you’ve been hood winked. The bible talks about those who have reprobate minds. I truly believe these guys have that kind of mind. They deserve the death penalty, when you look at the totality of each of their pasts. Except for maybe the 14 yr. old. Still should never see the light of day.
Not one of these gang members has taken full or part responsibility for their actions nor shown remorse, sorrow, repentance or condemnation of what they have done.
God was their creator and Satan has become their master. You should read Pure Murder. The truth often gets covered by what appears to be, instead of what is.
For me, I am going to get on with grieving for those two beautiful young ladies who were treated as though they had the value of nothing. As though they had no ability to feel pain. I going to get on with pray for their families.
The fact that these gang members get to communicate with penpals, have websites and acess to computers and get visits of any kind infuriates me.
I am going to grieve for God who was their creator and He had expectations for who they could have become and what they could do to make the world a better place.
Be careful LVS you don’t know who you’re dealing with. Don’t deal with Satan.
yes, never let these monsters out. please your daughters and sons will not be safe
dixie
My husband and I have been friends with a lifer. He was certified as an adult almost 11 years ago for something he did not do. I am glad that juveniles could not get the death penalty at the time in texas. He has a chance to proff his innonce. I am so sorry for that happened to victims and other victims and their families. If the system know for a fact that the people are guilty and they admit to their crimes, then they deserve what the punishment will be, but if they are trying to proff their innocence and something is really wrong, the system needs to look into that instead of trying to cut deals with the snitches that are giving false information to lessen their sentence.
My husband and I have been friends with a lifer. He was certified as an adult almost 11 years ago for something he did not do. I am glad that juveniles could not get the death penalty at the time in texas. He has a chance to proof his innocence. I am so sorry for that happened to the victims and other victims and their families. If the system know for a fact that the people are guilty and they admit to their crimes, then they deserve what the punishment will be, but if they are trying to proof their innocence and something is really wrong, the system needs to look into that instead of trying to cut deals with the snitches that are giving false information to lessen their sentence.
Sorry about all the mispellings.
Greetings to all here. I have been reading through this blog page tonight and ordinarily I don’t comment in places like this because it’s a never ending cycle unless one simply walks away. But that’s hard to do sometimes, once you’ve started something.
I do not wish to insult anyone or hurt anyone’s feelings. Nor do I wish to debate whether the death penalty is just or not. I personally do not believe in it but I’ve never lost a loved one to murder and certainly not a murder as brutal as the girls. If one of my children or someone I loved was murdered, I can’t say how I would feel about the DP at that point. I pray it never happens and I am so very sorry for those who are taken away in such horrible ways and also to their families who not only must live without them but must live knowing how their loved one(s) suffered.
I am writing this evening because quite a ways back in the blogs I read some things about how these guys had problems. Gangs, drinking, abuse, etc. Someone said it wasn’t an excuse. I strongly agree. However, it brought to mind something that I feel very passionate about. An issue which has seen a great deal of attention in the recent past, here in Texas. And before anyone goes dousing me with their acid words, please take the time to read this. I know it’s long. But please listen and think about what I’m saying because if this problem is not addressed and addressed soon, these kinds of senseless murders are going to continue.
Murdering a murderer isn’t going to prevent future horrors. I think most people these days agree and statistics show, that an, “eye for an eye” justice is not a deterrant. For those of you who agree yet feel that it’s not about prevention, but rather that it’s about justice, fine. We are all entitled to our opinions and because this is not where I’m making my point, I’m simply not going to argue it. I am discussing prevention, not justice.
As a parent, I am all for accountability. If any of us commit crimes or violate others in any way, we should certainly be accountable. I have two sons who have been in trouble. None of them have raped or murdered anyone and I pray to God almighty that they never do. But they have been in trouble and in fact, one of them is in county jail right now at the age of 19. My oldest (20) was just released from state jail a year ago. He was a week past his 18th birthday when he was sentenced for burglary. Very sad when he has spent most of his life instituionalized already. But… accountability for ones actions is necessary and just. I swear this is not about justice. I’m going to make my point eventually.
From about the age of 5 or 6 maybe even a bit younger, I noticed, as did others (family) that my boys were not quite right. Now when I say this, I don’t mean they were drooling all over themselves or had a crazy eye. They were normal birthweights and for all intent and purposes they appeared normal until about the ages mentioned above. I am not here to argue the ligitimacy of ADHD diagnoses or any others. I witnessed it for myself and have lived with it all their lives. Until you do, yourself you shouldn’t say one way or another. Their behavior became increasingly out of control. I tried therapy, counseling, parenting classes, spanking, not spanking, time out and everything else you can imagine or read in a book. Eventually even tough love when they were older. Nothing seemed to help and their behavior became even more difficult to control.
I was a young mother yes, and might as well have been single but I love my boys with all my soul so I was determined and I am pretty intelligent so I figured with some hope, prayer and preserverance, I’d fix it all. I was not abusive to my sons in any way, nor was anyone else that I am aware of and both boys are adament about this, to this very day. Unfortunately by the time they were 7 and 8 they were vandalizing, running away and quite simply unless they were literally locked in their rooms, they would essentially do anything they wanted to. They began stealing from me mainly but anyone who had something they wanted, starting fires etc. and keep in mind that all the while I was consistently seeking help from various people and organizations. At one point The Mental Health authority came at my request and after evaluating them and interviewing me, I was told I had “over active kids” and they “would grow out of it.”
When my son almost burned himself up playing with lighter fluid and after they both had started mutiple alarm fires and the fire marshall came to me and told me if it happened again they would charge me with first degree arson because my sons were too young (under 10) to charge; I made a last ditch desperate attempt to try to help them. I didn’t have insurance through any of this and being that I didn’t graduate highschool I had virtually no money from my minimum wage job. The social services in the comunity I had utilized essentially swept us under the carpet as they do so many. After both had, had stays in our state hospital, my son attempted suicide at around age 9 and the fire incidents, I most reluctantly made a call I never, ever wanted to make or ever thought I would.
I contacted CPS (Child Protective Services) and asked them to please help me help my kids. I relinquised my custody as it was the only way the state would/could pay for their very expensive long term treatment. This was the single biggest mistake I ever made regarding my children. After a long process they were each placed in RTC’s for long term treatment. They were diagnosed with ADHD, ODD and OCD. They reserved the bi-polar and severe depression diagnoses for later because they didn’t want to label them.
They were physically, emotionally and psychologically abused at every single facility they were in, by STAFF. In the beginning, we were reluctant to believe what they were saying because of their histories. And would seem logical if you wanted out of a place the best way to accomplish that would be to allegate that you were being abused. And granted, they were delinquents with very high IQ’s, not little angels. I’d never seen or heard of anything like this before. We had no reason to believe that adults who were there to help kids and CPS of all organizations, would lie or cover up. How tragically wrong we were.
It became clear that the allegations were true. But at that point CPS did not feel that I possessed the adequate necessities to parent them in the very controlled and consistent enviroment they would need WHEN they were ready to be released. So there they remained, being abused even to the point that a staff member slammed my sons face into a head board knocking his front teeth out among other things. All the while telling him no one loved him or wanted him. Why did he think he was there? Why did he think his mother put him in there? If his mother, or anyone had wanted his bad ass, he wouldn’t be there.
Their paternal grandfather got an attorney and they were released at ages 13 and 14 after approximately 5 years of this kind of abuse. From that point forward they were in and out of juvenile detention, where they were made to stay in solitary confinement in their own urine and feces, where inmates were put into rooms by staff and given boxing gloves when they were caught trying to fight other inmates, not to mention a host of other things.
They went on to the Texas Youth Commission and the abuse only became more severe. I do not have the time or space to go into specifics about all of that. You can email me at: [email protected] if you really want to know. But I assure you of this, NO CHILD should have to be treated the way these kids are. Being ripped off of toilets by multiple staff, with pants down and drug through the unit in front of peers because they don’t evacuate their bowels in the allotted time or being made to stand on “the line” and wait for permission to go to the restroom until they wet themselves, or having staff set up certain inmates so that other inmates beat them to a pulp. (see Joseph Galloway/EVINS Regional Juvenile facility case- my son saved Joe from being beaten to death and the case is ongoing with the ACLU) or being severely pepper sprayed but NOT decontamed for hours, if at all.
My kids have done things wrong. I have held them accountable, loved them and tried to help as best I can. Watching your children, no matter how old they are being beaten by the police for resisting and carried away in handcuffs never ever gets easier, no matter what they’ve done. You never numb to it no matter how many times you see it, especially not when you are sometimes the very one who called the police on them or turned them in.
I thank you all so patiently for waiting for my point. I do not know the personal or psychological history of these murderers other than what little I have found to read on that particular aspect of their case. However, I know enough through my own experiences with my own sons and those like them, that generally if kids are getting into gangs, drinking, drugging and breaking the law, there are serious, serious issues within that child, either caused by external factors such as abuse, neglect etc., or internal factors such as biology or a combination of both, that aren’t being adressed or as in my case not being addressed accurately, adequately, appropriately or all of those. If that goes on long enough to differing degrees of severity and I think all humans (kids as well) have different thresholds for what they can bear without suffering profound psychological effects, then you end up with kids like mine or worse kids like these boys who murdered these two precious human beings.
Do any of you know the extensive, explicit, personal, emotional, familial, psychological history’s of these guys? I am not saying a shitty life excuses murder but I am saying that certain things can shape a person into someone who is capable of rape, murder etc. If you shake up that mixture with things like gangs, drugs etc., and these things occur over a period of time; you have the potential for a deadly cocktail. You have a person who was once a decent, kind, caring loving person and becomes a hateful, rageful, low-selfesteem, distrustful, scared, ticking time-bomb who learns self preservation through conscious-lessness. To not feel, is a defense mechanism and is often times the only way an individual can cope with extremely painful or scary things. They become callous.
Drugs and alchohol, also used to self medicate and numb, exacerbate this phenominon and perpetuate other undesirable behaviors.
Please do not misunderstand. I am in no way attempting to defend these guys. Wrong is wrong is wrong. They were not justified in any way for any reason any more than my son was justified stealing. My son did his time and he absuloutely deserved to. I am merely trying to explain why I believe these things occur. My other son is more violent and he fights with people and law enforcement. He is currently doing time and will likely go to prison for not getting his rage under control. I do often times worry that someday he’s going to seriously hurt or kill someone or vice versa, because of some stupid fight he has with the wrong person, or a drug deal gone bad.
He has had a tremendous amount of therapy and medication and yet he still struggles every day (they both do) of his life to be a good person. Many people only see the bad side of him. However, he is not always like that. He loves. He is kind, helpful, extremely intelligent and hates himself most of the time for being the way he is. So you say, if that were true, he’d simply stop being that way if he hates it bad enough.
That used to be my thinking, too and I told them so frequently. I have seen my boys do amazingly brave and truly heartfelt things to help people, children and animals. And I have seen the ugliness, too. I have seen them be cruel to others and even to me. Yet I have seen and experienced what most of you, I hope, never have to. I have found my son covered in his own blood from slashed wrists and later again, watched helplessly as he sliced his arms in my kitchen and nearly bled to death, my other son overdose deliberately and literally be brought back from the dead and cry because he was still alive. I have held them as grown men, many times as they sob uncontrollably and beg me,
“Mamma please, please help me. Please! Why do I have to be this way?! I hate myself. I hate my life. Why was I even born? Damn God for putting life into my body!”
Will they ever murder anyone? Aside from them being murdered, it’s my worst nightmare and I live in utter fear of it every single day. I pray to God constantly to heal them. Will they ever murder anyone? I just can’t say. If they do, will I still be able to stand behind my lifelong belief of accountability and remind them of it as they are laying on the gurney with the death needle in their arm, as I watch them die? Absolutely not! I am their mother and I love them more than my own life! But I also couldn’t because you see, I have known them their whole lives. I have truly known them. Not just one horrible, God forsaken act, not from some news reports or books written about certain parts of their lives, or from court documents or transcripts. I have witnessed their suffering and wretchedly painful and seemingly endless struggles.
If we truly hate these crimes and we truly want to honor those slain, then we owe it to them and future generations to educate ourselves on mental illness, abuse, etc. and to stand up against these organizations who are supposed to be helping these kids and hold them fully accountable instead of just taking their word for it as I so ignorantly did. These very places and teachers, school counselors, porbation officers, police and everyone in between are perpetuating an already sick kid. I am not saying all are bad. Some just overlook and ignore or whip the kid off to the next department to be someone else problem until eventually they wind up in prison where they get more of the same reinforcement. These things I am suggesting we look at, learn about AND PARTICIPATE in may well prevent murder- but murder never, ever will. Execution is AFTER the fact. Shouldn’t we be trying to get to them BEFORE?!
How many disadvantaged kids are you mentoring? How many juvenile facilities on the local or state level have you visited and become involved with as a child advocate? Don’t have the time? You should find it. It might just save a life…or even more.
Oh, bull! Kids don’t turn out that f’ed up unless there is a lack of or really bad parenting. You should be ashamed instead of making excuses for them and yourself.
Hi again.
I wanted to clarify a couple of things from my last post. I stated that my sons were never abused. I then went on to say that in the RTC’s, and detention and jail facilities that they were. They were not abused to my knowledge or their recollection by anyone prior to being institutionalized.
Also, I said that I had never had anyone I knew or was close to become the victim of murder. While this is true, I think it is important to note, and I had intended to include this in my original post however after realzing that it deserved more than a mention to help illustrate a point, I decided to post it seperately.
I was aquainted with Ynobe Katron Matthews who was executed in 2004 for the murder of Carolyn Casey a young woman in College Station, Texas. He later confessed to murdering another young woman, Jamie Hart and received a life sentence.
Matthews was my upstairs neighbor for about a year after he murderd Hart. But at the time her case was unsolved. Matthews befriended and then attacked a close friend of mine who later testified on behalf of the prosecution at his trial. After the brutal attack of my friend, he moved and a short time later, Carolyn Casey was found dead.
My husband and I suspected that Matthews was violent with women for quite some time prior to the attack of my friend, as night after night during certain periods of time, a woman whom we assumed was his girlfriend would show up and we would hear screaming, shouting and loud bashing, smashing and banging noises coming from he upstairs apartment. It was never clear however, who was the victim in those fights or if Matthews was involved or if it was others in the apartment. Behind closed doors, there was simply no way to know for certain.
On several occasions I notified the local police department though I do not know what, if anything ever became of those calls. Though the presumed girlfriend stopped coming to his apartment and the fighting stopped.
One particular evening my husband and I had a get together at our apartment with co-workers from both out jobs. Later into the evening when he and I returned from and errand, we found Matthews inside out apartment with my friend and other guests who were kind of stragling about as the party ended.
I was surprised to say the least but after discussing it with my husband and neither of us wanting to make a scene or alarm our guests, we decided that we would keep a close eye and if Matthews didn’t leave soon, we would simply rush the end all together and ask him to leave as well.
I sat close by and in fact at one point interupted conversation between Matthews and my friend to explain we would be shutting it down soon. Matthews immediately stuck up conversation with me. I was suspect of this but humored the situation briefly while my husband thanked our guests and saw them to their cars. Despite the fact that clearly we were ending the evening, Matthews persisted. This made me even more precautious and uneasy.
He began discussing his youth minstry work in Dallas and even discussed God and Christ. My Friend was entralled with him and even though I had my suspicions, and felt a deep sense of, “something just isn’t right with this guy despite all outter appearances” with good reason, I admit he was very charming and funny and hard not to like.As I look back in retrospect, I beleive this is much like stories and reports I’ve hear about people such a Dahmer and Bundy.
My husband escorted Matthews to the stairs outside our apartment and then my friend to her car. Shortly there-after we heard loud music coming from upstairs, which was not uncommon but it got louder and louder. Soon after we began hearing loud banging and falling type noises and heard my friend scream for her life. I immediately contacted 911 who remained on the line with me until police could get there approximately 40 minutes later.
We listened to the rape and torture of my friend helplessly until I refused to continue waiting on the police and went to help her myself . (My husband had, had an amputation just a week prior.) As I was approaching the base of the stairs the police showed up.
They banged on his door well over 20 minutes and wouldn’t enter until they heard her scream again-thank God because we hadn’t heard anything from her for quite a while and were terrified because of our reluctance to go upstairs that she might have been dead.
Once Matthews opened the door, my friend came running out so fast and hard she almost went over the balcony. I have never witnessed a look of fear in any living thing, like that which I witnessed that night.
It’s indescribable. It’s beyond terror and desperation.
The police were reluctant to believe my friend because Matthews stated everything was consentual depsite my loud and quite aggressive protests to the contrary. Matthews went on to say that my friend, (who was a dancer at a strip club in Austin) had egged it on with her strip tease for him and she was making up these allegation because she was mad that he had not gotten her drugs she had requested.
(A side note: The police never offered her medical assistance or even to go to the local ER for a rape kit) and Matthews was not arrested for any violent crime against her because she had no visible marks on her nor did he. When you know and understand the nature of what he did to her it becomes clear why this wasn’t so. He was arrested for unlawful restraint and released on bond later that day or the next I believe) and I do believe that is only because my husband and I were so persistent with them.
My friend made a poor choice to go with a stranger she did not know. she was in fact a stripper and she did in fact do drugs on occasion. However, none of this justifies what this animal did to her. Among many other things that I will not explicitly go into here out of repsect for her, he choked her by merely pressing his two thumbs into her wind-pipe until she was unconscious, over and over and over. He never squeezed her roughly or hard. He never hit her or slapped her he tortured her psychologically, sexually and emotionally. She tried several methods to escape and save her own life incluing physical struggle, compliance and reasoning to even begging. There were several points in which she described to me that he became semi-compliant and even remorseful, sobbing and apologizing profusely. But then she would say that something would come over him… the “beast” would return and the assault and torture would begin again. Sometimes she said it seemed to be an animal in his eyes and at other times, he seemed human again but fearful and as though killing her was the only option at that point because she would surely turn him in and he didn’t mean to do it. At one point she recalled almost feeling sorry for him. But utterly hating him at the same time.
She was very ashamed and embarressed that it happened and blamed herself for a long time. I also believe that she hated herself for wishing him dead, hated herself for ever feeling anything but utter hatred during the time he was assaulting her and I also think she felt guilty for having those feelings as well.
When he was charged with the other murders a whole new bout of self guilt and blame consumed her. She actually felt guilty that she had lived and they died.
After talking with her through this over and over it became clear that he had done these things before. Before Matthews was charged with the murders I tried and tried to tell the police if he hadn’t already done something even more horrible, he was going to.
I understand our rights and I know because of these very rights, the police are limited to what they can do but I also believe their complacentcy <sp. in this case and their reluctance to move more quickly even after I suggested it was entirely likely that Matthews murdered Hart, Casey might still be alive.
Upon his arrest it became clear that Matthews had a history of this type of violence in the past. This is sad and tragic indeed.
When Matthews denied his rights to appeals, all but the one madatory appeal which was denied, it didn’t surprise me. I believe that 1.) he knew he deserved to die for the brutal murders he committed and 2.) I believe that death for him was easier than having to live with himself the rest of his life knowing what he had done. I also firmly believe that had he not been caught he would have continued killing. It is only because he was caught, convicted and placed in an enviroment where he could not avoid being confronted by his horrid atrocities day after day, that he could begin to feel remorse and living with what he’d done was simply too much for him. Death for Matthews was an easy out.
Some will say not so, because he’s burning in hell for eternity. Perhaps he is, but while he was on earth he relieved himself of his torture. Kind of seems unfair, doesnt it?
I’ll admit, I wanted him to die at times and at other times I didn’t. I wanted to understand him not so much because I felt sympathy or pity on him, though I will admit at times I did. But more because the only way to stop people like this and to prevent, young, vibrant people with so much to live for, from being snuffed out in the primes of their lives, is to undertstand why they do what they do. We can’t do this, if we are killing them. So in our selfish,hellbent need to exact revenge and “justice” we are killing what I believe to be an integral part of solving the problem.
I know that many professionals have attempted to learn from killers and I believe we have learned much from it. I don’t think we have learned enough less we’d have a lot less muder on our hands. But we have learned. Removing the guinea pigs and rats from the laboratory is shooting ourselves in the foot. Using them for such a purpose is the very least we can do for people like jennifer, Elizabeth, Casey and Jamie. And it’s the very least the killers can do after what they have done. I think compliance in some type of study program should be mandatory, even it if inlcudes labotomies and other invasive procedures. Cruel and unusual? I think not anymore than executing someone without trying to learn anything from them in the least.
Some would merely play games and there is just no help for or anything to be learned from them no doubt, but I do believe there are people out there who truly have a problem and they themselves wish they did not. I believe Matthews was probably one of those people. I believe over time he would have talked candidly and I believe we would have learned much from him. I do not beleive Matthews was intrinsically evil and beyond help or helping others.
I do not believe he should have even been set free, ever! Nor do I think that any murderer under such circumstances should be, whether they are truly rehabilitated or not. Take a life, your is taken. But not in the form of death. That’s simply easy for both sides I think, and it just makes people feel better, to some degree. We feel as though we’ve DONE SOMETHING. Yet it doesn’t bring anyone back and it doesn’t solve the problem nor prevent it from happening again.
My friend didnt die, had she, I might feel differently. Again, I can’t say.
I only wish for people to see this whole thing from a different perspective or in the very least…ponder it with consideration.
K
I just wanted to say hi to Ron if he is still checking this site. How are you buddy?
Hi LVS,
Nice to hear from you again , I was wondering if everything was O.K. with you.
All is very well with me , no complaints , hope it is the same for you.
If you would like , perhaps Robbie could provide you with my e mail address , and we could communicate directly.
Take care,
Your friend.
Ron
Murdering a murderer isn’t going to prevent future horrors. I think most people these days agree and statistics show, that an, “eye for an eye” justice is not a deterrant.
For some reason, you and a few others, believe this is their private forum. If you state your opinions, people have the right to challenge them. Capital punishment prevents the murderer from murdering again in prison, if they released, if they escape, and from ordering others to commit murderers on their behalf. Also, there have been numerous recent studies that demonstrate that for each execution, 3-18 murders are deterred. And, please, no book length responses.
That would be good Ron, as this forum is obviously not for us to chat back and forth. I would be happy if Robbie could do this. Do you ask him or do I?
Hi LVS,
I sent the request to Robbie , hopefully I will hear back from him soon.
Have a great day.
Ron and LVS,
It is a shame that you are leaving this forum. I just read this thread for the first time a few hours ago after I had already made some posts on another thread on Robbie’s site regarding this case:
http://urbangrounds.com/2005/03/29/jose-medellin/#comment-140051
I found your comments interesting and would have enjoyed your feedback to my comments.
Hi Tracy,
I am not leaving this blog , I would just like to have some conversation directly with LVS.
I read Robbie’s blogs every day , and have read your posts which I found most interesting , and very well written.
I intend to send you some feedback on your posts on the Medellin blog.
Have a great day.
Ron
Thank you, Ron. I look forward to your posts.
Take good care.
Well, I finally read far enough back on this thread to read Andrea’s comments. I’ve never been a betting person, but, in this case, I would be willing to bet that her fiance/husband is Raul Villarreal.
She had stated that she was marrying one of Jennifer Ertman’s killers: Villarreal was on one end of the belt while Sean O’Brien was on the other before the belt broke. Villarreal later stood on her neck when she would not die.
Also, if you will refer to the chapter on Villarreal in Pure Murder, Corey Mitchell mentions an Andrea that Villarreal befriended during his nurse’s training program. I will not list her last name on this forum, however, as there is no need to bring her more harrassment–especially given that there is no way to tell for sure if that is the very Andrea who had posted on this blog. But . . . whoever Andrea may be, I am still willing to bet that Villarreal is her man. I am even more inclined to believe this when I consider the topic of this particular thread . . .
Anyway, if Andrea still reads this thread, I want to let her know that I hope she finds happiness. To each their own. Life is too short to worry about other’s opinions as long as you have found peace within yourself.
Take care.
Forgot to mention above:
In her second post, Andrea alluded to the fact that her loved one was serving life, which also points toward Villarreal when taking into account all the other clues.
Hi Tracy
I have not ‘left’ this site as such and will continue to check it out, but as Ron has said we would also like to talk to each other about all sorts and this forum is not the place for that.
I will read your posts with much interest.
Kind regards,
Hi Tracy,
Again, I must say that your posts are most interesting , and very well written , you certainly have done your homework on the Jennifer and Elizabeth case.
After reading what you say about Andrea being married to Villareal , I now tend to agree with you based on her previous posts. However , for the life of me I will never understand marrying someone that you can never be with. If Andrea knew him before the murders , and still continued to be with him after knowing what he was part of , this to me is unbelievable. I understand love , but under these circumstances , a murderer originally sentenced to death , someone who now will spend the rest of his life in prison , I would not wish that on anyone. She also mentions that she fell in love with him after the murders , and that they will fight the system to the end. The chances of either Villareal or Perez someday getting parole are not likely based on the horrifying crime that they committed , as well as the attempted murders while they were in prison. It also seems that prisoners who were on death row and had their sentence commuted to life , do not get the usual benefits of the general population. They are in confinement in their cells, and are not allowed contact visits , at least this is what I have read about. I don’t know how Andrea can find true happiness in this situation , however I do not wish for her not to.
Regards.
Hi, Ron . . .
I forgot to check this thread!
I agree with what you say about not being able to understand how one could be married to someone with whom you can never hold hands or with whom you can never fully share your life–aside from the brief, sporadic, “clinical” visits the inmates are afforded. Imagine what it must be like to always have a plexiglass separating you from your spouse so that you can never even share a comforting touch and to know that your most intimate conversations are being listened in on by guards.
I have pondered on this and the best explanation I could come up with for why so many inmates attract women who eventually marry them after a “courtship” of correspondence is that it is quite similar to the Internet romances into which some people get drawn. There is no danger in having a relationship that involves writing someone (other than the impending heartache they will eventually suffer if their spouse is on Death Row).
We can, however, not ever truly know someone if our only contact is through writing or brief visits with no contact. As all of us who are married know, a big part of marriage is learning to live with the idiosyncrasies of another person that are never apparent until we live our lives together day in and day out, week after week, year after year. If we do not ever have to deal with another person’s ideosyncrasies, then we can indefinitely remain in that state of bliss couples experience when they first meet in which the similiarities between themselves are emphasized while the differences and flaws are minimized. There are actually studies that document that this maximization of similarities/minimization of differences and flaws occurs when couples are first attracted to each other! (If this did not occur, then none of us would probably ever get married!)
I guess this minimization of differences and flaws certainly helps these women look past these men’s crimes though I have a hard time understanding why these women would want to seek a romantic relationship with a convicted killer in the first place. I can admire those who reach out to show grace and offer friendship, but I’m with you in your amazement that there are women who would actually seek to have these types of romantic relationships.
So, I can only guess that there are similarities between the appeal of long-distance relationships, Internet relationships, and the relationships some women seek with men who are incarcerated for life or are on Death Row. After thinking more about this, I found a website on which a much better hypothesis than the one I came up with was offered to explain why women marry men on Death Row:
http://groups.google.com.nf/group/alt.obituaries/msg/f630f219a19b5dec
The story is short, but very interesting. Essentially, the author posits that the men on death row are lonely and needy and that there are plenty of lonely and needy women. The relationship requires only that they be able to write love letters and that this is a type of relationship that neither has to work at (not like you have to work at a relationship in which you share your life in close proximity with another). Even more interestingly, the author states that this may be the safest relationship with a man that the woman has ever had, especially if she has experienced abuse. Why? Because he is locked up. When she visits her husband, she is separated from him by plexiglass and there are guards present. As the author asks: “What could be safer than that?” He will always be locked up, so there will never even be a future threat to her physical safety.
This probably explains the majority of Death Row marriages, though I am sure that there are those who have other reasons and motivations. When I was doing a search for the above story, I came across another story about a woman who married Richard Ramirez, a.k.a. the “Night Stalker” who is (sickeningly) reveling in the public attention she has received. She even capitalizes on her marriage by having a website for him to sell momentos (such as his fingernail clippings!) Crazy, huh? That is one site I do not ever wish to visit!
I don’t think most women marry these men for public attention though, as most of them tend to remain under the radar as best they can. But, I personally feel that the story on the link I provided above at least partially has some bearing in all cases. While it would not be the type of relationship I would ever want to have with my spouse and I can’t imagine ever setting out to initiate a romantic relationship with a convicted killer, I can only wish those who choose to marry someone they will never really be with as much happiness as they are able to derive from their relationship. Andrea seems to have hope that she will one day be able to be with her spouse. I wonder though if she is actually taking comfort in what, for her, is a “safe” relationship and whether she has unconsciously chosen to engage in a fight against the system that she, deep down, knows is a losing battle. Some seek meaning by immersing themselves in a cause and are actually more in love with his/her cause than with the person who represents the cause. Just a thought . . . but I don’t know.
Anyway, it’s been interesting discussing this!
Take good care.
LVS,
Sorry I didn’t respond. I just noticed your post.
I look forward to reading your posts in the future as I found all of your previous comments fascinating.
Best wishes.
Don’t look for that misguided soul Andrea.She is a Finish woman who married o’Brien.The highiest point of they marriage was obviously his execution.She was apparently some sort of groupie.I am mother of two and grandmother of four.I am very placid person.But the book ‘Pure murder’ left me sleepless and full of anger.As far as I know that jerk Cantu (cunt) should be dead long time ago.I am an Australian women.We (unfortunatly)don’t have the death penalty.But we have next good thing:never to be relised.We have few of them behind bars.And there is no future for them.One of them is Ivan Milat.The backpakers killer.Others are some Arabic boys who gang raped some Australian Girls.They copped 55 years behind bars.I have a filligg that they will rott behind the bars and they will never see the other side of the world
Neve ,
Actually , O’Brien’s wife’s name was Noora from Finland , it was not Andrea.
She always raved about what a wonderful man O’Brien was , what a joke , how wonderful is it to kill three people , O’Brien was a thug , rapist !!!!
Hi Tracy
Your post was very interesting. I know a few women who have had or are having relationships with guys on death row and I suppose there are numerous reasons they embark on these relationships.
Possibly at first it is the excitement of writing to a ‘dangerous’ person in a dangerous place and subsequently meeting that person. Entering high security prisons and going through the many security checks and gates is not for the faint hearted! There is also the point you made about the fact that if a man is locked away for a long time or awaiting execution, it is a safe relationship. There is no pressure to do what people who live together do. They can always look forward to seeing the person again, the butterflies still flutter, and, surely, most people like to flirt. But there are no physical consequences to that – very safe.
Of course many women believe the guy is innocent. The guys themselves can offer very persuasive arguments about their innocence and some are plausible. And I suppose the women MUST convince themselves, otherwise they could never willingly become involved with a guilty man – especially in a horrific crime.
Again there are women who know the men are guilty but don’t mind or care.
I did meet a very nice lady who married a guy who was on death row for killing his wife. Go figure.
However, some of the relationships do have problems and some fall apart. A lot of these guys write to women all over the world – jealousy kills marriages both in and out of prison. Someone I knew spent years campaigning to get her fiancee off death row but they broke up just before he got out. I am unsure of the reasons for the break. Yes he did get out – occasionally it happens.
I am sure there would be lots of ladies who would disagree with this as every relationship is different and people have differing experiences and reasons for doing things.
But it is interesting to ponder it.
regards
Anyway, if Andrea still reads this thread, I want to let her know that I hope she finds happiness. To each their own. Life is too short to worry about other’s opinions as long as you have found peace within yourself.
You are as sick a fuck as she is.
Someone I knew spent years campaigning to get her fiancee off death row but they broke up just before he got out. I am unsure of the reasons for the break. Yes he did get out – occasionally it happens.
He was using her, you dumbass. He referred to her as that fat ass bitch that he was going to push off a cliff when he got out.
Anonymous, you are a vile and disgusting person. Your language is vile and your opinions are vile.
Get over yourself.
No…it’s not, not to a well adjusted individual.
I am not sure I understand what you mean No2.
I see.
Well, it will give you something to work on.
I see.
Another hateful person.
I have enjoyed discussion (and that’s all it is, discussion) with a couple of very nice people. They know who they are.
As for you, don’t bother to write anything else — you’ll be talking to yourself because I am finished here.
I will leave you hate filled, nasty pieces of work to tear lumps out of each other.
It is no wonder to me why this world has turned into such a terrible place and why we are in the state we are in.
I despair for a world peopled by such as you.
No, one that has no patience for those who are interested in befriending monstrous murderers. I hate what they did to those little girls, and will never forget or forgive their crimes, and I certainly have no interest in who they are now, or any interest in the type of loon that believes they are of any value.
My only interest is when justice will be served, and the world can be rid of these creatures, and they face their final reckoning.
Ain’t it the truth!
You are as sick a **** as she is.
If attempting to set aside my own feelings about something in order to extend grace toward someone whom I do not understand makes you think I’m sick, then so be it. That is only your opinion, though I do not know how you would make such a leap to this conclusion considering that I have posted on both this thread and the Medellin thread many, many times clearly outlining my beliefs regarding our justice system.
As far as I am aware, Andrea was not convicted of the heinous rape and murder of two innocent, precious young girls. That being said, I do not understand, nor have I ever claimed to understand, why any woman would seek these types of relationships with a convicted murderer. Whatever their reasons may be, I certainly do not believe that it is a good decision in that it could never lead to a healthy relationship (for multiple reasons, which I’m sure we are all intelligent enough to discern on our own). I don’t know what Andrea has been through in life to prompt her to make what I feel is such an unhealthy decision. I don’t think feeling compassion, sorrow, and concern for someone such as this makes me sick. But, that’s my opinion and, luckily, the only opinion to me that really counts. I base my opinion on myself on personal accountability and thus try to always live my life in such a manner that I can face myself each day in the mirror. That includes always showing respect for the rights of others, including the right of others to hold a different opinion and not disrespecting others by using bad language to get my point across. The only rights that have been forfeited with respect to the topic of this thread have been the rights of those fairly convicted to live in free society. To make myself as crystal clear as possible: I support the death penalty in cases of extreme brutality when the evidence is overwhelming (as in this case).
Again I reiterate that I assume those posting on this board are not convicted murderers and rapists and thus retain their right to live among free society. And, so, everyone here has the right to state their opinion.
LVS,
I have enjoyed our discussions and reading your posts. You have such a warm and gracious outlook on life. I also want to point out that you have made it very clear in your posts that you do not, for one moment, dismiss the horrors of this crime nor the need for punishment.
Warm regards.
Again I reiterate that I assume those posting on this board are not convicted murderers and rapists and thus retain their right to live among free society. And, so, everyone here has the right to state their opinion.
I should have also added that it is a shame that not everyone on this board is able to state their opinions in a respectful manner. When you call people names, you only diminish your argument along with your credibility. This type of behavior is not worthy of respect.
But if you insist on the childish behavior of name-calling, at least have the guts to post your name. This type of hostility while hiding behind anonymity is an act of cowardice. It brings to mind people I see almost every day on our city streets and highways who seem to believe that being behind the wheel of a one- or two-ton vehicle provides them anonymity and invincibility. These people may be the most placid people when they are face-to-face with you, but being enclosed within their vehicle in their own “private” space somehow makes them believe they are justified in exhibiting road rage and allowing their anger to take over all good sense while they endanger others needlessly with their reckless actions.
Similarly, it seems as though there are a few people on this board who believe that they can discard all notions of civility just because we are not all face-to-face and can hide in the privacy of our own homes and offices. As if that is not enough, some seem to also need the further anonymity of a screen name. This is fine. There’s nothing wrong with screen names. But I maintain that, if you have even a shred of integrity, when you choose to insult people and call them names you should man up to it. Post your name. Ask yourself whether what you are writing on this message board is something you would say to someone to his or her face. Especially to someone who never insulted you or called you names and was only engaging in polite conversation. Ask yourself if you would like your family members, friends, and co-workers see you behave that way. Wouldn’t you be ashamed? If are indeed the type of person who loses all control as soon as you hear just one comment with which you disagree while engaged in public discussion and respond by spewing out curses and derogatory names, then you are not worthy of respect. You also do not come across as reasoned or intelligent as you are not even offering up a reasoned response. If you would like to offer a reasoned argument for why you disagree with someone, fine. That is what the board is for. But, before you begin constructing your argument, first look up ad hominem attack. I have not said anything on this board that I would not say to anyone in person. Can you say the same for yourself?
Just so you can not throw this back in my face, I am now posting my FULL name.
Tracy Fanous
Plano, TX
You seek out the most vile disgusting rapist murderers to be pen pals to. You lack shame. You insult the victims and their families and anyone who believes in justice by coddling to these sick fucks who did this to Patricia, Elizabeth, and Jennifer. Who the hell wants your respect? You are a bunch of freaks. This forum had been used to support the family of the victims. You bitches in heat have changed it into PTO-Undergrounds. Go back under your rocks.
Well, my post did not go through. I did not write the post dated August 24, 2008 at 8:04 a.m.
I had attempted to submit a post just a minute ago from a different computer than I normally used. After I sent it, I realized I did not sign. I am not sure why it did not show up, but will resubmit another post later when I have time.
Tracy Fanous
Don’t know what happened to my previous post, but hopefully this one goes through.
You seek out the most vile disgusting rapist murderers to be pen pals to.
Anonymous, your behavior is pathetic. I have never said I was a pen-pal.
I just recently read through all the posts on this thread and was only addressing a topic about which many, many other posters had expressed wonder. Most of these posters were even pro, such as myself. Many were attempting to determine which one of the killers she had married. Many wondered HOW and what would drive someone to make such a strange decision. I never claimed to understand, I was just attempting to discuss something that others had expressed an interest in. If you are not interested, fine. But before you attempt to dictate what is okay for others to discuss, remember that the topic of this thread is not “What a cowardly woman who calls herself Anonymous wishes to critique regarding the ensuing discussion that results when Supremes Strikes Down Death Penalty For Juveniles.”
Also, discussing possible motives of people in choosing to behave in a way in which you never could does not make you sick. If that was the case, then everyone who works in law enforcement, the defense department, counseling, psychology, and the ministry would be sick. A lot of popular television programs examine people’s motivations. So, by your logic, just about everybody is sick. Or perhaps you are the one that is sick. You seem to live in an alternate reality in which you ascribe thoughts and behaviors to others that they do not hold and have never performed. You seem to confuse the fact that we did not understand Andrea’s motivations with the idea that we have Andrea’s motivations ourselves.
Regarding your claim that I do not respect the victims or their families:
Anyone with a third-grade education can see how much respect for the victims that I have. I have posted many, many times on the Medellin thread. In many of these posts, all I discuss is the victims. I mention them repeatedly because it is important to uphold their dignity and honor their memories. I have also very carefully outlined my reasons for supporting the death penalty on the Medellin thread. What have you ever said to uphold their dignity? Don’t point out your hateful sniping, because that does nothing to honor them.
Your posts bring to mind the type of people that we are all so unfortunate to know . . . we all know the type: They hang around social gatherings with family and “friends” and never have anything of consequence to contribute. For kicks, let’s just call this type of person Aunt Mabel. Bitter old Aunt Mabel hovers anxiously around the group for the sole purpose of criticizing what others may say. She never has anything to contribute. She will take the words of others and twist them in her macabre way into something they are not. Just so you know: No one likes Aunt Mabel. Everyone is happy to see her go. She offers nothing of interest to anybody.
I never said what you claim that I have and I think you are sick for twisting a non-issue into an issue. You have also not responded to anything I HAVE said. When you make allegations against others, you should first take a moment to examine what it is that they believe. You have not only accused me of believing something that I do not, but you have also accused me of an action which I have never performed. I can only conclude that you are not only pathetic, but of low intelligence as well.
You can say whatever you want. You can make as much of a fool of yourself as you want. But, you can expect to be called on it. Just do not expect any respect when you choose to behave so illogically and irrationally.
Why don’t you take your own advice and go hide under your rock? I do not hide under rocks, nor do I have a need to. By the way, hiding under rocks is an act of cowardice just like hiding behind anonymity while you insult someone. I posted my name and am not a coward. I guess you are admitting that you are one.
Tracy,
I totally agree with y0u this forum is to discuss your opinions about the above topics. I also posted a comment on the medellin forum where 2 people were insulting each other back and forth with racial comments, i usually don’t post on this sites but i have been reading your post and i have read the book pure murder and what these men did to these girls was horrible. I believe the men that comitted these crimes are where they belong because the choices that they made. I hope they realize that not only they destroyed the lives of two beatiful girls but also the girls parents, and their own parents. I like to engage in conversation with people that have points of view like yours and don’t insult people. I have read these board and the Medellin board and can’t believe how hateful people can be about their opinions and because others have a different opinions. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if these women want to write to these men and communicate with them then that their choice, like is the choice of other to believe or not believe in the death penalty. Maybe they have a good heart and believe that these men have change, i don’t know if they changed or not, only they know deep inside, to try to understand someone that would be committe somenthing so hanious is hard to do and just because you don’t agree there is no need to call them names and insult them. Well, i don’t know if I am going to get insulted for posting my thoughts, because it seems that is what some people do. I would like to correspond with you tracy because you seem to be knowledgeable and have respect or others like myself.
Maria
I hate what they did to those little girls, and will never forget or forgive their crimes
Well, I think we can all certainly agree with this. I wish, however, that your comment had been directed to me instead of LVS since I was the one who reintroduced the topic. She was merely being polite by joining in the discussion to offer insight gained from her years of experience working with her husband in the ministry. She has never been a pen pal to any of these guys, but only met one of them (Perez) through her service with her husband. She has expressed nothing but respect for Jennifer and Elizabeth and has said in many different ways that it is beyond her how any of these “men” can live with themselves.
I’ve posted on the Medellin thread and just recently read this one. After reading through all the posts, I believed that I had figured out the answer to one of the questions that had reverberated throughout the board and wanted to share it with those still reading who had posed the question. While an answer to the accompanying question regarding the motivation of such a misguided soul eluded me, it seemed, judging from several posts, as though many people were trying to figure that one out. Obviously it is something we’ll never truly understand.
If you are not interested, that is fine. But most of us can’t help but shake our heads and wonder what drives others to make decisions that we can not understand. However, it was just a discussion and does not mean that we are not “well-adjusted.” Discussing it does absolutely nothing to subvert justice. Nor did we wish to.
i have been reading your post and i have read the book pure murder and what these men did to these girls was horrible. I believe the men that comitted these crimes are where they belong because the choices that they made. I hope they realize that not only they destroyed the lives of two beatiful girls but also the girls parents, and their own parents.
Hi, Maria . . .
I, too, have read Pure Murder and was left profoundly disturbed. I couldn’t sleep for several days as the thought of what these poor children endured kept creeping back into my mind. Imagine, then, how the parents must feel . . . I also can not imagine what it must have been like to serve on one of those juries. I would have had nightmares for the rest of my life. At least these jurors know that they were able to help give these parents the comfort of knowing none of these guys would ever be released (with the exception of Yuni, but at least he got the maximum number of years possible). Just by reading about this case, I have the faces of these girls indelibly imprinted upon my memory.
I found it so incredibly hard to believe that anyone could be capable of doing such unimaginably horrible things to another person. It just makes it that much harder to accept knowing that it happened to such innocents. How anyone could bring themselves to commit such an act is completely beyond me. What makes it worse is that there were so many of them. You would think that, among so many, there would be an increased likelihood of someone helping the girls. Oh, and I think the Sandoval brothers should have also been tried as well. They were also culpable. I do not know how any of them can live with themselves . . . including those who walked away and just let it happen.
You are right about them ruining many people’s lives. They are also responsible for ruining their own lives because only they are responsible for their actions. Where they are today is the direct consequence of those actions.
Thank you for your kind words. I’ll be checking these threads again this weekend, hopefully.
Anyone with a third-grade education can see how much respect for the victims that I have.
Anyone with a third grade education can see that you don’t. You pay lip service to them at most. Yours and others book length comments is evidence of your narcissism. Just like the monsters who committed these crimes, you have personality disorders. Seek help.
Hi Tracy,
I just received an e mail from LVS , she asked me to pass on her best wishes to you , and to tell you that she too has enjoyed your posts.
She would like to talk to you directly , by e mail , would you mind if Robbie exchanges your addresses ?
Please let me know and have a great day.
Best regards,
Ron
Why?
You weren’t the one who said:
Considering the miscreants this discussion was about, I don’t find that attitude beneficial to society or well adjusted.
Go check yourself!
You take everything everyone says and turn it round to suit your own argument. What you just said means nothing – look at the statement LVS made and then look at what YOU said – it means jack.
I’ve read everything on this blog. Man, there are some sick fucks on here. I have nothing to prove as I don’t care one way or the other about the death penalty. But hey, surely people have a right to speak without being beat to death with rocks. I always thought it was ok for someone to have an opinion.
I understand what LVS was saying. Just a discussion you idiot. Your comment is nonsense. You are sick fuck.
By your standards everyone should guard every single word they say in case the fucking grammar police start taking apart every goddam statement anybody makes.
What the hell is the matter with you. Do your comments make a valuable contribution to this or any other blog. NO. they certainly dont. You are an angry, sick, sad and sorry individual. People will have different opinions than you. You may think you have a superior intellect but you are a sad fuck. Intellectual fuckin dwarf.
KJ,
So, let me get this straight, you are upset that I knocked some one else’s opinion, and in return you attack mine?
Bravo!
Your grip is tenuous.
This is not a dedicated anti-dp forum, in fact, the owner and many of us are pro-dp, so when the weepy, whiny attitudes about murderers are expressed here, they will seldom be warmly welcomed. I will state my opinion, and my opinion about others opinions anytime I like, and no little foul-mouthed, ankle-biting dingus like you can change it.
You have clearly joined the group of maladjusted commenters from above.
I don’t knock your opinion. You have an absolute right to your opinion. As I said i don’t care one way or the other about the death penalty.
All I said was that other people should be allowed to have an opinion also.
If those people do not subscribe to YOUR way of thinking, they may not be deficient. They may not be stupid. They just think in a different way to you.
You make me angry because you are arrogant and bigoted and nasty. Have a meaningful discussion by all means but don’t attempt to shoot everyone down in flames because they have an opinion that is different to yours. Don’t try to belittle people because they are having a discussion about things.
You are obviously an intelligent being, don’t show yourself up by disallowing others to have an opinion.
so if you were out in company, say, a dinner party, you would not be prepared to have a conversation/discussion with anyone. Have you never been in mixed company where you mulled through a topic or idea?
If you anwer yes you have, then what is the difference between that and what some of the people are doing here. If the answer is no, then is that because you and your friends are so close minded and opionated that you cannot contemplate any ideas outside your own.
I hear Hitler’s parties were similar.
And I notice that I am a ‘foul mouthed dingus’! You say nothing to Anonymous about being foul mouthed. Come on, you can’t have it both ways.
All a bit one sided isn’t it. Foul language is fine as long as it’s coming from a rabid death penalty lover. but you don’t like it when it’s coming from someone who just believes in free speech.
I don’t give a damn about who gets fried and who doesn’t. I do believe in free speech. And before you get bent out of shape about bad language you’d better speak to your buddy Anonymous. Now that is foul mouthed.
Henh.
KJ, you directed your pejoratives at me, no one else did.
And it’s my opinion, that the opinions I questioned in that discussion, are misguided.
I find it interesting that you are reading a comment section, on a subject you state you have no interest in, only to find such displeasure with my comment/s. I’m curious as to what your motivation is, as I have a suspicion you are a sock-puppet.
In any event, since you have invoked Godwin’s Law into this thread, you have signaled defeat and surrender. Pity, that, as I would have liked to have known why you say you have no interest in justice for those who have none for the innocent.
Yep, you can stop rubbing your hands with glee now sicko or you might set fire to yourself. You think you won an argument, that’s fine. Although I didn’t particularly compare you with Hitler, I decided to close the argument because I was tired of you and your pathetic twisting of words. You are a pain in the ass and I was bored with you. So the old trapdoor opened and I happily dropped myself through it.
I only got on this blog because I found it when whiling away some time. I did enjoy winding you up. Apparently you don’t have a life as you spend all your time arguing with people. How sick does that make you.
Enjoy yourself you loser.
You invoked Godwin’s Law, you lose. I didn’t have to do anything.
Come back anytime KJ, it’s always interesting to see someone like you.
/henh
What a big kid you are. You’ve obviously got no friends if you spend all your time prowling around this site looking for people to pick on. What do you do, spend your life looking up little laws and things in dictionaries so that you can prove how smart you are. I bet you were the class bore. You still are a class bore.
I stand by what I said, other people have a right to discuss ideas and thoughts without having you making your caustic comments.
You are a sad individual and I actually feel sorry for you. Get a life pal.
I do have a life.
outta here.
KAYJAY 5
No2Liberals 0
KJ,
You came back for one last rant, and now you are gone again.
How can I ever have a life without you?
/s
Actually, kj, you were the one trolling, or in your words, “whiling” away on the innernut, on a thread that is over three years old. I don’t have time to prowl, I have admin privileges, and can look at comments as they are posted, no prowling involved.
Other people can say whatever they want, including me. I realize that is difficult for you to understand, but this is a public forum that Robbie provides, and not the private sanctuary of a few that wish to chit chat. If one doesn’t want one’s opinion challenged, then they shouldn’t post it.
If one wishes to troll through a dead thread, on a subject they allege they have no interest in, get all pissed-off, post obscene comments, invoke Godwin’s Law, then run out the door, like you, they can do that too.
oooooooooooooo, look at you – admin privileges !!! Wow, we are all impressed!! Child. Sick Child.
I can’t live without you, you Saddo. I’m not ranting, just speaking sense, instead of the twisted reasoning you constantly display.
And, before you start, I’m not getting into semantics with you.
Grow up, stop playing infantile word games and get a life. I will drop in from time to time because I can’t resist you.
LOVE AND HUGS
That’s just it dear, people can’t say whatever they want because you chip in with your so clever ‘up yourself’ comments. Do you stare in the mirror each morning, before you log on and TROLL through this site, and tell yourself how wonderful you are and how totally clever you are.
People can’t have an opinion because you don’t think they’re entitled to one – not unless they think exactly as you do.
Love you hun.
O and by the way it’s internet. Or, I guess in your case, it really is internut.
innernut whatever you clever ass. I obviously am not QUICK enough for your cleverness and wit. Man, you are SO sad you’re funny.
Sad braino, sitting at home on it’s own. Grow up you infant.
And before you tell me, you don’t TROLL through this site because you have admin privileges!! We are so impressed we just pissed on ourselves.
Boy, talking about someone being wound up!
Hee-Hee!
Anon, sorry, when I found that button on kj’s game controller that said animate, I just couldn’t resist pushing…repeatedly.
I’ll stop….when it’s batteries run out.
Hey, kj, that’s some life you got going on out yonder.
/i’m impress
I have posted this anon for various reasons that will soon become obvious: some more evident than others. I will say that I have posted here before. It’s so awful that people here can’t post their opinions and share openly in discussion without being verbally bashed and harshly judged for their points of view. The bantering and name calling is childish and clearly indicates the intelligence and maturity level of those doing it.
For anyone who is interested: I have recently made contact with Efrain Perez and he has responded. I am not seeking a romantic relationship with him. I do not defend him, nor do I seek to exploit him. However, I will not post information or progress here as I don’t think this is the place to do so. I will also explain what I’m doing. Here is simply too volatile an enviroment for any truly intelligent discussions to occur. If you are interested in hearing more about this endeavor I will be setting up a site for this purpose and you may go there for more information when it’s up and running. I will post that information as soon as it’s ready.
Alrighty, then!
Make it soon, the progress aspect is intriguing.
I just received an e mail from LVS , she asked me to pass on her best wishes to you , and to tell you that she too has enjoyed your posts.
She would like to talk to you directly , by e mail , would you mind if Robbie exchanges your addresses ?
Hi, Ron . . .
Sure, that would be perfectly fine with me. Should I send Robbie an e-mail? If you would like, you could have him give you my e-mail address as well. The thread has gotten a bit off-topic, and I do not want to contribute further to that!
I did want to share something of possible interest regarding the aptness of the death penalty as a means of justice for the girls and their families. Below is a link to the August 3, 2008 Dallas Morning News letters to the editor. The letter I am referring to is the last letter and is entitled: “The Man Who Changed My Mind.”
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/letters/stories/DN-3p_death_0803edi.ART.State.Edition1.4d4441a.html
The man who wrote it, Michael Denson, is the founder of a death row ministry, so I am sure he has about seen it all. Though he is normally against the death penalty, he was completely for it in this case (Medellin’s specifically).
Take care.
However, I will not post information or progress here as I don’t think this is the place to do so. I will also explain what I’m doing.
AnonGrl,
Just curious if you could at least indicate what type of progress you are expecting to make? I assume (perhaps wrongly) that you are involved in prison ministry?
It’s so awful that people here can’t post their opinions and share openly in discussion without being verbally bashed and harshly judged for their points of view.
Then go start your own blog. This blog was not started to be a meeting place for thug lovers and those who are titillated by seeking out contact with rapist/murderers.
Hi Tracy,
Just to let you know , I have asked Robbie for your e mail address.
Take care , have a great day.
Ron
Ron,
Hello I just finished reading the book Pure Murders and stumbled across this blog or whatever. I was very intrigued with the comments and converstions that you and LVS had on here and would further like to chat….If that is ok with you 2. Just alittle afraid of the later posts on here and it looks to be alittle dangerous to express your opinions here.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks you.
This “blog or whatever”, is not pro-murderer or for their scumpals. If you want some place where you can post all your sick fantasies, there are plenty of sick blogs and forums to do it on. This blog is pro victim and pro victim families and love ones.
Ron,
I came across this blog and was reading through the posts you exchange with LVS and I found some of her posts intriguing. Would you happen to know if she still reads this blog and I would like to share some of my thoughts with her…
Kindest Regards,
C-Spy
Anonymous ,
Why are you such a nice person ?
No2 – do try and improve your punctuation. Too many commas upsets many of your sentences. Get the basics right otherwise no-one will be impressed.
Love Ever Ready
You will notice I said ‘impressed’ and not ‘impress’ as your last post. Spelling a problem as well. Oh dear. Need tuition?
Henh…kj, you don’t get out much, do you? The “i’m impress” tag goes back many years in blog lore, as it was posted by an idiot troll, like you.
As for my punctuation, you obviously don’t understand the use of apostrophes for possession and contraction.
Is that all you’ve got?
Quite a life you have there.
LOL!
You also said you pee on yourself, kj. Need diaper?
I just read the book Pure Murder. I had never heard of the case till now. As humans, we can only imagine how horrible a death it was for those girls, and we can only feel pure hatred for those boys. But while the girls suffered, so did Jesus befor His death. Ultimately, there is no pain in death. God steps in and takes over. As evil as those boys were at that time, it’s still up to God to pass judgement. He knows their hearts. They can ask for Gods forgiveness and if they’ve truly repented, God will know, and forgive them.
It is not a question of whether these juveniles KNOW right from wrong. They may or may not given their circumstances and the environments they grew up in.
The question is whether they CARE about right or wrong. If you don’t care about yourself, you can’t care about anything or anyone else. There are a lot of people who are too ignorant to know right from wrong. They don’t all go out and kill someone else. However they vent their anger, rage and hostility by posting their comments on the internet demanding that other people be punished for their crimes.
Even Jesus Christ, responded to the accusers of Mary Magdeline (who had been caught in the act of idolatry) saying “he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”
There are a lot of stones being cast at these juveniles. I hope that every one posting these comments have their own lives in perfect order under God’s law. An old, old saying : 2 wrongs never make a right.”
God Bless You and Help You.
[...] the United States ruled in February of 2005 that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes. Which means that Juarez can’t be executed for his [...]
I have committed rape, torture, and multiple murder so, I’m cool with the big guy.
Oops! I haven’t committed rape, torture, and multiple murder so, I’m cool with the big guy.
If these people (Medellin and his so called “gang”) cannot guide their actions by normal social values, then the law dictates what they can or cannot do. If they act against the law, and decide that the don’t care about society, laws, order, the well-being of others (think of the two raped and murdered girls) or at least distinguish aggression from peace, then they do not belong in THIS society and should either be taken to mogadishu or expunged from society, simple as that.
Andrea-
You have not said anything for a long time but I hope you see this. I pray he rapes you like he did my cousin. Maybe your front teeth should be knocked out so you could suck his dick better like your husband helped do to my cousin. I hope you get therapy for your illness you piece of shit. A monster 16 years ago still means a monster today, I’m sorry you are blind, deaf, and dumb. I can’t wait until the day he is killed if not already, I just wish it hurt more. I will have a smile on my face that day and I will think of you and have peace that he is gone and you have now had someone taken from you as we did. Never again wish your condolences for my family and Jennifer’s that is a blatant sign of disrespect given your position and choices. Some day you will meet him in hell, you truly make me sick.
Elizabeth’s Cousin
I do apologize if my language offended anyone but Andrea. I don’t normally speak like that but this is a topic that has plagued my family since the night of Elizabeth’s murder. Thank you.
Pena, glad you were able to let some of that anger and sadness out.
God Bless you and your family, for the suffering you have all had to endure since her murder.
No apology needed, Peña. You have every right to be as angry as you are about the rape and murder of your cousin.
Pena,
You have every right to say whatever you want to, especially to Andrea, she is a really sick individual with no self esteem whatsoever, and no chance of being with a real man !!
Does anyone know of Peter Cantu’s status, why is he still alive, what is taking so long for justice to be served, he should have been the first to get the needle, what is going on ?
P.S. Who is Andrea married to ?
I appreciate your support I have never blogged before. I do not know the status of any of the men. I do not know who Andrea is married to. I am 27 and only that night decided to read what really happened to Elizabeth. Elizabeth was a little older than me and since I was a teen like her my parents spared me the details at the time, I was told she was killed and taken advantage of. I did not live in Texas when this happened so it was not nightly news where I was. This is not a subject my family especially my father will speak about. The night I wrote to Andrea was the night I read all of the details. I did not sleep for many nights after I read the details and it will forever haunt me. When it is a random person you hear about this happening to on the news it hurts your heart and makes you nauseous. When it is someone you know or are related to it is a different emotion entirely. I fear for whatever children this “Andrea” might have, I pity her and truly hope she seeks professional help. She is delusional as I think all who have read her remarks might agree. When the crime is as severe as the nature of my cousins murder there is no “boyhood” mistake even using the excuse of “mob mentality” doesn’t apply. My husband was mortified when we read together first the details then Andrea’s remarks. At no point in his life no matter the age would he be able to fathom doing even the most minor of offenses that happened to Elizabeth. Normal people no matter inebriated or drunk with endorphins commit such heinous acts. I thank you for your support and your thoughts.
someone said in an above post that juveniles dont get executed in texas? maybe i read wrong but thats not true, juveniles do get executed in texas, jay pinkerton is one example. I dont know too much about the murders of the two girls and maybe efrain was too easily lead by the others, he shouldnt have had his death sentence commuted. if texas can execute other juveniles why not him? maybe he has changed, but they all say that. he knew what he was doing, just like the others that night, plain and simple. Im not for the death penalty i think it should be scrapped but only because innocent men and women get put to death, not that im saying efrain is innocent because i dont belive he is
okay ive waffled to long now i hope im making sense.
I hope the remaining killers die on death row and if not may they rot in jail. I know it’s a good thing that the book came out because it raises awareness. I wonder about the families of the girls who were murdered. How do they feel with all the graphic photos in the book.?. Did the author even ask the families, how they would feel? Does he give any of his proceeds to the families… It Should be divided equally among them.
Peña,
I wanted to offer my condolences for the needless heartache your family has had to endure these past sixteen (almost) years.
Though I am a life-long Texan, I did not learn of this crime until almost a year ago. Like you, I had never before made an online comment; but the facts of this case were so incredibly upsetting that I felt compelled to arrive at a better understanding. Yet there is simply no sense at all to be made from any of this. As such, I found that I could not sleep for days after reading about it.
If this case could affect so many complete strangers so strongly, then I can only imagine what it must have been like for you to try to digest the inexcusable horrors that were perpetrated against your cousin and her friend. I also cannot imagine how your uncle and aunt (as well as the Ertmans) managed to survive witnessing the testimony during each one of those trials. How I wish that there was some way to lift even a fraction of the burden of pain from them.
You are absolutely 100% correct: There is no excuse in the world that can even partially explain how a person could treat another human being in such a manner — and there is simply no excuse in the world which could mitigate such brutality. I could not even treat an insect with such cruelty.
Your cousin, Elizabeth, and her friend, Jennifer, were such lovely and beautiful young ladies. I will never forget their young, smiling faces and I will continue to grieve that their lives were cut short so brutally. The world is that much poorer since losing them. They each had so much to offer and so many blessings to bestow upon those around them. There is a hole left in the fabric of each of their families’ lives which can never be mended.
In closing, I just wanted to say that you do your cousin’s memory an honor by demonstrating what a wonderful young lady you are yourself.
Blessings to you and all of your family. Blessings also to the Ertman family. Your daughters’ memories are cherished by a great number of people — more than you can ever know.
Sonia,
You are correct that Texas did execute juveniles in the past. This was, however, before 2005 when the Supreme Court ruled against it (see Robbie’s blog title and his summary of this ruling above all the posts). Jay Pinkerton was executed in 1986, well before the 2005 ruling.
I do agree that 17-year-olds are very much aware of what they are doing. They are very much aware and understand the difference between right and wrong. In cases such as this one, there is simply no excuse whatsoever for such actions.
ahh i didnt know about that ruling , but i dont see why they couldnt have made that stick until after all the poor girls killers have been put to death
my heart goes out to both girls families and it broke my heart when i read about the case and saw that one of the girls escaped but ran back to her friend. that poor brave girl
I can not believe that Peter Cantu is still alive, will this nightmare never end for the families? It is way past time for him to die, he has no soul. I think I will start emailing Governor Perry every day asking when the execution date will be. I don’t want the filthy punk to outlive me, I want to know he is dead. He has had three hot meals a day and a pill when his head hurts for 17 years now and it is time for it to end. Elizabeth and Jennifer do not have the priviledge of a good hot meal, or to watch a tv show, or to enjoy family and friends on Christmas day, they will never get to marry and have children, it seems obscene that any of these waste of breath, sorry excuse for a human should get to do anything except sit in a cell and wait, no entertainment, no books to read, no visitors, seems only fair to me, at least they won’t be left alone in the woods for the maggots to eat, read the book, Pure Murder if you dare, but be sure you have a strong enough stomach for it.
I think there should be a law against any of the scumbags mentioned here and all the other murderers in prison from getting married period.
Andréa, you must be a real piece of work to even get involved with this piece of crap in the first place. I can only imagine you are a trailer park living, no tooth having,slutbag who can’t find a real man/woman.
Do the world a favor and get yourself to the free clinic and get sterilized before you and your piece of scum murdering boyfriend get your first conjugal visit. The last thing this world needs is your offspring running around.
Brian !
Peter Cantu lost an appeal a few days ago:
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6960340
He still does not have an execution date.
What complete and utter BS! Kids DO NOT need the death penalty. Yes most people remember being underage. BUT remember the STUPID BS you did then? WHY did you do it? Maybe you didn’t hurt anyone BUT you still did stupid shit. Everyone wants to be an axe murderer apparently and even if you use the state to do it, YOU are still an axe murderer!!!
What a stupid comment. Like most kids, I never committed a felony let alone rape and murder. It’s ridiculous how you have tried to excuse the behavior of these monsters. You definitely must be a scumpal. And no, execution is not murder.
This is the most horrible murder you have ever heard of??? For Real?? After reading all these posts I know why we as human beings can’t get our shit together. There is so much hate in all of you I can feel it from this computer. Its hate that makes us evil. How about the man and woman who tortured young women in the “toy box” now that is the most horrible disgusting thing I have ever heard of. No matter, it is a circle of hate and all of you are keeping it going. I have to say GREAT JOB!!!! The world is full of genius’s! And YES Execution is murder! If nature or God does not see fit to take them, you think you are? There are sadistic psycho paths that sit around thinking of ways to destroy someone, to toture them and you say these boys are monsters. What about you? You sit in your cozy home and think evil, wish death, pain, misery on someone you have never met. Was it your family he hurt?? Did you know them personally. You are no better, if you can sit and think evil you can most certainly do evil. Seriously all you are doing is keeping evil alive.
No, it is not.
Yes,it is!
No, it isn’t!
You are correct, anon.
They posted Cantu’s date yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AUGUST 17th!!! I’ll be there with bells on and a huge sign sayin time to burn in hell you POS! I was outraged when Medellin almost didn’t get his because of that mexico crap. Cantu, I hope this next 4 months of yours is grueling…It makes me sick that they can have time to adjust to the date, talk to a preacher, have a last meal…blah blah blah…I think all 6 of those filthy scumbags should have been killed in the same manner as those poor girls…makes me so angry…but at least he will burn in hell and soon…
Realizing this is a sensative topic… and I am not even for the death penalty, let alone for minors… but wouldn’t it be funny to take the creepers and sentence them to death, but never tell them when that would be.
Like the real sickos in that case with the 5 kids and the rapes n murders… Like just tell him that he’s been sentenced to death, and then send him away to his cell to constantly think about it, not knowing when it would come.
Surely a little more psychological bullying could be done. Again, I’m not for the death penalty, but if you’re going to kill someone, clearly you can come up with something a bit better than a shot that just makes them fall asleep. That’s not even scary. Bring back burning executions and people would probably fear the law a bit more.
Ive known one of these ” killers” for 15 years when they did the trial they had no dna evidence puttin him at the scence.of.the crime all they had was his gun that he reported missing 3 weeks before the murder. Yes I totally agree if they did the crime they should do the time but what about the ones who get convicted for someine elses crime?
Yawn. Give is a name so we can look up the case ourselves.
Yes, I would bet there was much more evidence for a jury of 12 to convict…
Why are you resurrecting a 2 year old thread?
Whitney reeves
Murders 2 people in their home because a 14 year old girl provides testimony on troy grover her co-defendent. Your little precious whitney needs to die.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I dont think he could do something like thisbut I do understand your side as well
Read this innocent and weep for the deaths of two people at your little whitney’s hands…
http://panews.com/local/x681416719/State-rests-in-Glover-murder-conspiracy-trial?start:int=0
Ive read the transcript.from.court thats not excatly how it happen
post the link…
From Reeves own habeas corpus petition:
Petitioner, Whitney Lee Reeves, and Troy Don Glover became acquainted when they
worked in the same restaurant on Pleasure Island. RR. 17, P. 31-32 (See Exhibit # 8). A former
girlfriend of Petitioner, Amanda Sherrer, testified that prior to the murders Petitioner told her that
he and troy were planning on killing a girl and her father. RR. 17, P. 43-44 (See Exhibit # 9).
Witness Cari Geoffroy testified that she was seeing Petitioner at the time of the murders and that
Petitioner had come to her and told her that he had done something bad; that he and Troy had
killed two people. RR. 17 P. 176,178. (See Exhibit # 10)
State witness, Joshua Kame, a friend of Petitioner, testified that on August 20, 1999,
Petitioner told him that he had done something bad and that he wanted Kame to accompany him.
Witness Kame testified that he and Petitioner got a gas can and a black bag and they went out to
Pleasure Island in the late night, early morning hours of August 20th
and 21st 1999, and Petitioner said that he was burning evidence; some clothes. RR. 17, P 214, 218 (See Exhibit # 11). A witness from the military testified that Petitioner confessed to being involved in the offense. RR. 19, P. 29-30. (See Exhibit # 12)
Petitioner called Troy Don Glover, who basically disputed all of the evidence of the
State, whether in inculpated him or Petitioner. RR. 19, P. 45-48, 53, 68 (See Exhibit # 13).
Additionally, Petitioner testified upon his own behalf, explaining that he accompanied Troy
Glover, but that he did not commit the offense. RR. 19, P. 134-142 (See Exhibit # 14). Following
all of the testimony and arguments of counsel, the jury found petitioner guilty of capital murder
as alleged in the indictment. RR. 19, P. 229. (See Exhibit # 15)
Looks damn guilty to me!
Because he was a few hours short of this 18th birthday, he escaped the death penalty. I sure hope he is never paroled. Two lives and he should ever walk free? Spit!
Also his ”gf” said he went and burried the shot gun in hemphill at his familys property she told them where he said he burried it they went and never found it hmm theres alot of different stories to this crime.
You have non-existent critical thinking skills.
ugh i am so outraged about the ‘pure murder’ murders!!! ive read true crime genre many years now and after a while the shock value kind of goes away but this book i found hard to stomach>>>what those pieces of shit did to those innocent girls!! sickening!!! and jo meddlin with his bullshit him and his whole family should have stayed the fuck where they came from!! ugh makes me ill