UT students vote in favor of reducing marijuana penalties
Shocked, I tell you. Shocked. College kids want to smoke dope without being hasseled by the man.
University of Texas students want penalties for marijuana use or possession to be reduced to the same penalties for on-campus alcohol use or possession.
“By having stricter penalties, I think that many of us feel UT is just promoting alcohol use due to the fact that they are harsher punishments for marijuana,” said Judie Niskala, the UT Campus Coordinator for SAFER Texas, which stands for the Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation. She also leads Texas NORML, another group working to decriminalize the drug.
You’re a graduate student, right Judie? You should have at least learned by now that alcohol is legal; marijuana is not. Therefore, the penalites should not be the same.
Have you not taken a logic class yet? Seriously. UT penalizes students for inappropriate or illegal (by a minor, for instance) alcohol usage. I don’t know in what reality you can conclude that UT “promotes” alcohol use by penalizing it. However, by having stricter penalites for an illegal behavior regardless of your age or location of usage, UT is also attempting to discourage and curtail illegal drug use.
Maybe if you didn’t smoke so much dope that would be obvious.
The sad thing is, SAFER trys to mislead us into thinking that if there were more lenient marijuana usage rules on campus, students would drink less and opt for the “safer” choice of smoking more dope instead. SAFER wants more lenient dope use rules so that students are not “driven to drink”. Pathetically, they even try to tie in the death of UT freshman Phanta “Jack” Phoummarath, who died last december from alcohol poisoning — inferring that Jack might not have died that night if only the University had let him smoke dope instead.
Lets be honest here, kids: reducing marijuana rules and penalties on campus isn’t going to reduce drinking. What it will do is increase illegal drug use. And unless you’re a drug dealer who stands to gain from this increase in drug use, Judie, I don’t know how you can possibley think this is a good thing. You’re not a drug dealer, are you?
***
One of the responsibilites of a university is to prepare students for the “real” world beyond college. Well, kids…out here in the real world, there are very real laws and penalites for smoking and possessing dope. You should go ahead and get used to that now.
Now, put down your pipe, and go to class.
***
MORE: Funniest blogger report on this story from In the Pink Texas:
so the referendum is pretty much a symbolic statement.
Like a liberal arts degree.
Ha.
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An overwhelming majority of UT Austin students supported making campus penalties for marijuana the same as alcohol. The campaign was spearheaded by SAFER Texas. UPDATE:Urban Grounds doesn’t think much of the referendum. I left my thoughts on Robbie’s post in the comments.
“You should have at least learned by now that alcohol is legal; marijuana is not. Therefore, the penalites should not be the same.”
Yet, alcohol is responsible for many deaths every year like Phoummarath’s, many more if you count DUIs, while no one in history ever overdosed on marijuana. What does that tell you about the rationality of the law?
I remember back in the Reagan era conservatives talked about personal freedoms and getting government off our back, but that whole concept never seemed to materialize. Now everybody on the right seems to spend their days justifying big government’s every brain fart. What’s up with that?
Scott, do you really believe that decriminalizing marijuana would decrease alcohol consumption? Do you really believe that these two things are related?
Yes I do, and I also believe it would DECREASE marijuana consumption among minors. As a kid in Texas growing up, alcohol was almost impossible to acquire until one approached the legal drinking age because it’s strictly controlled and regulated. From junior high on, though, any student who wanted marijuana knew where to find it.
Both the substitution effect with alcohol and the benefits of a regulatory scheme on limiting negative market externalities (like consumption by minors) are basic Economics 101.
Dear Urbangrounds,
The only argument you seem to make is that one substance is illegal and one is not, but for most of the fifty-thousand undergraduate students at UT, the possession of EITHER alcohol or marijuana is a crime.
All of the rest of your comments are just trying to make not-funny jokes about “dope” and I think the rest of the world is ready to move beyond the distracting jokes and talk about the real issue.
I agree with Scott, what happened to the kind of conservative that protects individual freedom from unnecessary government baby-sitting? What do you have to say to the Daily Texan Editorial Board about their endorsement:
“If a student breaks the law, let the courts decide his or her punishment. For the University to step in and take additional punitive measures is akin to double jeopardy. If the University believes that an alcohol awareness class is sufficient to set a drinker straight, marijuana smokers should have to meet the same standard. If the school thinks that isn’t enough deterrence to alcohol, it ought to rescind the title of ‘University’ in favor of ‘preschool’ or ‘nursery.’ College students are adults who don’t need to be administratively spanked.”
– Daily Texan Editorial Board
Wondering where the true conservatives went,
-a
The only argument you seem to make is that one substance is illegal and one is not, but for most of the fifty-thousand undergraduate students at UT, the possession of EITHER alcohol or marijuana is a crime.
Ann, you’re right — this is the gist of my argument. While possession of alcohol by a minor and possession of marijuana are both crimes, they are not equal crimes and should not be treated as such.
Possession of a six pack of Miller Lite or possession of an entire swimming pool is still the same misdemeanor crime of minor in possession. Except for those student over the age of 21, than there is no crime.
However, the level of crime committed for possession of a single joint vs. the possession of a bale of weed are considerably different and severe…we’re talking felony here.
As to the Daily Texan Editorial Board’s endorsement? Doesn’t mean a thing to me — these are the same kids who want to get high without reprecrussion.
If a student is caught off-campus smoking or possessing dope, then I think the U should let the arresting department (APD, Travis County Sheriff’s Office, etc) take jurisdiction and prosecute the kid. There is no need for the U to step in.
However, if that same kid is busted on campus or by the Campus Police, then the University has a responsibility to its community (that’s me) and to it’s students to enforce the laws of the state, and further to act in its role of teacher and educator to impose additional penalites that reflect that role.
Most of you 50K kids are transients in our community. The other 800K of us non-students live here year round and in 5 years after you enroll as a freshman, will still be here. We’d rather not have a U that endorses or promotes illegal drug use.
And lastly, I don’t see anything contrary to true conservative values in supporting the continued criminalization of illegal drugs.
“I don’t see anything contrary to true conservative values in supporting the continued criminalization of illegal drugs.”
I’d ask Milton Friedman or William Buckley about that.
If you’d said NEOconservative values, I’d readily grant the point.
Conservative values also encompass moral values; not just the tenant of small government…and I (and a majority of other Americans) believe that illegal drug usage is a moral failing. So does our government, and they punish users and dealers accordingly.
Moral failing?
How do you figure that?
The Ten Commandments are a pretty good guide to true morality. What do you think? There should have been Twelve, or Fourteen, or Thirty-two, or a Hundred and Seven Commandments?
Too late…guess the author should have checked with the self-righteous among us to see if that was enough, before he turned those tablets in.
Robbie, you said, “I (and a majority of other Americans) believe that illegal drug usage is a moral failing. So does our government, and they punish users and dealers accordingly.”
Adultery is a moral failing. Do you think the government should be arresting and fining adulterers…or fornicaters?
I think it’s fine if you believe that taking drugs is immoral. There are many who believe that one drink of wine is immoral. You should follow your standards and try to raise your children to do the same. But where I very much disagree with you is when you think it’s the government’s job, with your blessings, to enforce your idea of morality against others who might disagree with you.
It seems to me that that sort of morality…which involves punishing others for perceived failings… is actually iniquity, in itself.
Robbie, you said, “Well, kids…out here in the real world, there are very real laws and penalites for smoking and possessing dope. You should go ahead and get used to that now.”
That’s it. Crush any hopes at ever changing the misguided cannabis laws. We are here to serve the State. Don’t you know? All laws are written in stone. Give me a break!
“And unless you’re a drug dealer who stands to gain from this increase in drug use, Judie, I don’t know how you can possibley think this is a good thing. You’re not a drug dealer, are you?”
Such a low blow I am at a loss for words.
“Maybe if you didn’t smoke so much dope that would be obvious.”
In an effort to reciprocate the good ol’ low blow. Actually, I think you’re the dope Robbie.
Wrong. The majority of Americans (75%) believe Cannabis should be legalized for medicinal use. The majority of Americans (60%) believe Cannabis should be taxed, regulated, and legalized, just like alcohol.
Cannabis has tested safer than alcohol in every comparitive test. Driving, anger management, recreationally. SAFER.
Medical reports are coming in daily proving everything the DEA has said about cannabis is a lie. Do you understand? The government has LIED about Cannabis for over seventy years. We are ending the lies.
Yes, it is illegal. That is what we are changing. God bless the students who actually have a heart and conscience.
Also, Robbie, what do you find so morally valuable about locking people up for using a plant, authorized by God himself on the first page of the Bible? What is the moral of the story of cannabis patients being locked in cages for using said plant? Didn’t Jesus heal? Wasn’t it man’s laws that killed Jesus?
The laws of Nature are perfect. God knew exactly what he was doing when he created Cannabis/hemp.
Mans laws are imperfect and must constantly be changed, revised, amended, and struck down. The laws of against Cannabis/hemp will be stricken from the books. Nature will have her way.
So many things to refute, so little time:
Tookeroo — the coca shrub is also one of God’s little creations. Are you advocating legalizing cocaine, too? You’d be surprised to learn that I do support medicinal use marijuana. I somehow doubt that many of your fellow dorm-buddies have glaucoma. And you forgot to cite any of your facts. I’d lend more credence to them if the polls you were alluding to didn’t come from the UT student body or the readers of High Times.
Dave — back to the issue of the U’s role in preparing you kids for the real world — one of the arguments in this referendum is that kids should not be “punished twice” for their illegal drug use (once by the law, again by the U administration). But the reality is, if I (or most Americans) go out on Friday night and get arrested and convicted for drug possession, come Monday morning, we will also lose our jobs because of it. Ask Ricky Williams about that. No seriously, turn to the guy on your right that you are about to pass the pipe too — it’s probably Ricky.
Hope — most of this country’s laws are grounded in moral subjectivity. Murder, rape, robbery, prostitution, and illegal drug use. All against the law, and all based on the basis that a majority of the nation’s citizens are morally oppossed to these things. Sorry, but when ,em>your moral choice is counter productive to the better good of society and is also a minority choice (and let’s not kid ourselves here, kids, drug use is counter productive to the better good of society), we can impose our moral values on you.
I’m getting a good laugh out of this by the way — for all of ya’ll’s posturing, this boils down to nothing more than a story about a bunch of dope smoking students who don’t want to be punished for their illegal behavior. And guess, what? It’s not even a new or original story. Every group of college kids since the 60′s whose footsteps you’re following in, wanted the same thing.
So Robbie it comes down to cannabis is bad because it’s illegal and it’s illegal because it’s bad, but the badness is only partly bad because I support it’s medical use, but it’s really bad cause of those damn hippies. Oh and the coca shrub is a bad analogy, ask peruvians the shrub itself is not terrible (in fact they use it all the time) but processing the bush with Hydrochloric acid to make cocaine is bad for everyone involved. Stick with what you know, imposing your set of morals on me. Thanks.
Oh and I didn’t go to UT and live in Austin and support what the students are doing, and no I don’t smoke dope as you’d call it, but still support the effort to end the “double jeopardy” as it exists.
cheers.
Dear Urbangrounds,
I want to thank you for supporting an important part of the Alcohol-Marijuana Equalization Referendum – the part that opposes University penalties for off-campus marijuana use and possession. I am glad that we can at least agree on that much. Currently, the University can punish students for off-campus illegal marijuana use, but not off-campus illegal alcohol use. Now the only part of the referendum you disagree with is having equal penalties for on-campus use since marijuana is less harmful than alcohol.
You keep coming back to the fact that the law is the law. Yet, you say that you support changing the “illegal drug” law for medical marijuana users – should we just come to you if we want to know which drug laws should be changed and which should not?
I’m not seeing anything consistent about your arguments except those same tired old jokes that make you sound like a writer for Reefer Madness.
-a
Robbie, you said: “As to the Daily Texan Editorial Board’s endorsement? Doesn’t mean a thing to me — these are the same kids who want to get high without reprecrussion.”
I would be fascinated if you would elaborate on why “getting high” requires some sort of artificial “repercussion”. Why do adults need to be spanked by the govenrment, for doing something of which the greatest measurable harm is to invoke your disapproval?
Sorry, but I have witnessed much greater repercussions than anyone’s disapproval caused by enjoying nature’s bounty.
I’ll never understand the mentality of continued alcohol or drug abuse. Stay clean and sober for a month, and then go watch the parties and gatherings you currently attend sober and observe. Then ask yourself objectively if you want to be seen in the condition of those you are observing.
If your answer’s yes, go for it, just please don’t endanger my life by driving while under the influence of anything (including legal drugs and lack of sleep).
Remember students, you also have a right to change these laws Robbie adheres to, if you believe them to be unjustifiable. A Constitutional Republic allows protection from the cruel majority Robbie is so proud to be a member of. Excercise your rights to change these ancient, racist laws that are based on ignorance, fear, and corporate conspiracy. It is ok to question authority, if fact it is wise.
SAFER is also SANER.
The only reason recreational cannabis is illegal is because it acts as an excuse to keep industrial hemp and medicinal cannabis illegal. Didn’t you folks know that? Have you “prohibitionists” been brainwashed all this time?
Cannabis is one of the most benign substances known to man and has never killed anyone in thousands of years of use. The petrochemical,pharmaceutical,liquor,timber,tobacco,cotton,
etc.) industries don’t want the competition so they lobby to keep it illegal. If the government trully cared about us they would outlaw alcohol,tobacco,many prescription drugs and most of the foods we eat! They wouldn’t care if we stuffed oxy up our butts until we exploded if it weren’t for the fact that they couldn’t continue to tax us if we were dead! Is it really moral for that same government to cage an adult individual for engaging in an act which harms nobody else’s person or property?
I urge all of you to research why cannabis was outlawed in the first place and I guarantee you will be p*ssed off for being lied to for decades! Food,fuel,fiber,paper,plastics,building materials and medicine can all be gained from the cannabis plant.
If God gave us “every green herb and every seed-bearing fruit” then who would try to take the most versatile one away? Very telling, eh? God bless.
SHADOW OF THE SWASTIKA (The Elkhorn Manifesto):The Real Reason the Government Won’t Debate Medical Cannabis and Industrial Hemp Re-legalization:
http://www.druglibrary.org/crl/
Support the mexican drug gang trade. But, don’t get in their way, They’ll kill anybody who does. They’ve got you, their customers, to satisfy. And work as hard as you can, petition, do whatever is necessary to make sure your university supports the mexican drug trade too by making it as easy as possible for you to get your weed. And, have a nice day.
Hey Dianne, I have a better idea. Let’s shut down the Mexican Drug Gang Trade, (or is it the Mexican Gang Drug Trade?) by doing one thing. ONE THING. Re-Legalize Cannabis Sative/Hemp. Remove it from the drug trade by making LEGAL profit that would stimulate OUR economy, (not the world-wide drug trade economy).
Stop being stupid about Cannabis/Hemp. (I’m not talking specifically to Dianne here) Learn why so many Americans are screaming END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW! Remove children as targets for the drug trade. Why? Because drug dealers don’t CARD, Cannabis Cafes DO! (They are like beer joints ok, but instead of the disgusting smell of cigarettes and liquor, you inhale the smell of Sweet Leaf.) Millions of ADULTS use Cannabis RESPONSIBLY every day. Stop prosecuting them as criminals, if you’re going to continue accepting alcohol as a SAFE, LEGAL substance. End this war on American citizens, which is UNCONSTITUIONAL anyway! The government has never been given the right to declare war on it’s citizens!
SAFER has definately got the right idea.
Wage peace on war,. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
Toker,
Ya know, once a person gets beyond the college years and into the world of changing diapers, paying mortgages, working 10 hours a day and mowing the yard, somehow we don’t have the sense of urgency or energy to carry the banner to legalize marijuana anymore. We’d rather our government would just blast the drug gangs off the face of the earth while we enjoy a glass of good red wine and a hot bath full of bubbles.
Peace,
Dianne
Well that was a very hateful thing to say, Dianne. Would it surprise you to know that I am 52 years old? And well beyond you in wisdom and compassion. Sounds like you are living an existance, and not a life. I’ve changed many diapers. Mowed many yards. We all pay mortgages or rent or vehicle payments, so what’s your point? The difference between you relaxing at home with Alcohol, and me relaxing at home with a Joint, is all that you have to worry about is domestic violence, broken marriages, and battered or otherwise abused children, broken dreams and promises, that sort of thing, while I have to worry about being put in a cage for possessing something that humans have smoked, eaten, worn, lived in, created with, and treated illnesses with for at least EIGHT thousand years on planet Earth. For using something that helped rescue me from the violent and destructive world of alcoholism.
You would have our government kill American citizens so you can drink your brain cell killing alcohol, worked to death so you can pay your taxes to a government which uses it to kill for profit, in your name. Yes, most Cannabis consumed in the United States is grown right here in the good old USA. By Americans who are fed up with a society so close to Nazi Germany pre-wwII, that they are beginning to TAKE their freedom to decide what to put in their bodies for either food or medicine. You, on the other hand, prefer to get your medical advice from a police officer, your security from a government building thousands of prison cells all over the country so YOU can feel FREE.
Another world is possible. But you can’t treat groups of people who think differently from you, like Hitler did the Jews. You get bad results when you do that.
I’m not asking you to wave a banner for legalization. I am asking you to stop the insanity and damage of a THIRTY + year unconstitutional war on American citizens. Learn about the DAMAGE caused by the War on Some Drugs before you go hiding behind their badges. Educate yourself about the REAL reasons Cannabis/Hemp was banned in the first place, and maybe, just maybe, you can stop thinking about yourself, and start realizing life is not as it seems, sometimes.
Please stop blowing people of the face of the earth, then wishing me peace. See how dumb that is?
Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
Dianne,
TokerOO is right about all that he said.
I really don’t know what to say to a person who wants to blow a certain sect of people off the face of the earth while they, themselves, enjoy a glass of red wine.
You’re talking about killing people, draining their blood, stopping their hearts, ending their lives, causing them to rot in a grave or burn in a crematorium…while you enjoy your glass of red wine? How cool are you?
Somebody with exactly your attitude…”blow em away”, killed Veronica and Charity Bowers and sent Veronica’s husband, son, and friend, into a spinning crash into a jungle river.
Veronica was a Baptist Missionary holding her baby in her lap. One prohibitionist bullet went first through that tiny chest of Charity’s, then passed right through into her mother’s chest.
We…you and I…paid for that damned bullet. We killed them both with one bullet. I am grief stricken about it. I want to see that it never again happens to anyone else.
One bullet. That should be cost effective for blowing people away. One bullet for two people. How efficient is that?
What if you and your baby are “accidentally” caught in that next “mistake”? What if someday it’s your child holding their own baby that gets a prohibitionist bullet to take them both from you at the same time.
Are you so tired and give out that you can’t even think?
I’ve been changing diapers, working and mowing lawns for a long, long time, myself. I was changing diapers when you had to wash the poop out of them by hand in the commode before you washed, bleached, and boiled them, hung them out to dry, and folded them just right and stacked them and put them away, before they went through the same rounds again.
My mother had to iron diapers that froze on the line before she could get the second clothespin on them. Raising babies isn’t easy…but you’ve got it easier than the women who came before you. Believe me. I’ve changed diapers today, this very day…the new and easier way now, though. Disposable diapers are a wonder.
I’ve also mowed many a mile with a no motor mower as well as the powered type. I’ve worked many, many eight and ten and twelve hour shifts and more than a few 16 hour ones…in addition to the 24 hour a day job of being a mother. I know what “tired” is. I’ve had the honor of raising four remarkable, successful, and good people to adulthood and now I have the joy of babysitting my grandchildren whenever I get the opportunity.
Life is hard. Life is very hard for most people and hideously hard for a lot of people.
What’s going on in your life that you could kill or have killed, so easily and thoughtlessly?
You have your drug…your red wine. Why do you want to kill and imprison those who prefer a different drug? All drugs are substances just like your red wine, except when they are medicine, just like your red wine. Why, in the name of God, would you want to kill people because of their desire to use, smuggle, or sell a substance?
Like TokerOO said, you end the violence when you end the prohibition. How many Budweiser and Coors dealers, wineries, or vintners have shootouts and murders over territory? I think they stopped that when prohibition of alcohol ended.
Your drug, alcohol, can kill with intoxication just like the so called “hard drugs”. How many times have we heard of a college student, usually a freshman, drinking himself to death? Quite a few. There’s a few every single year.
Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol can all be poison or even deadly in high enough doses. Peanuts can kill some people. How many times have you read or seen on the news, “College student dies from marijuana intoxication”?
The people who are trying to reform drug policy in this country are using what bare scraps of energy they have left after living their also full lives, to try to see that their children aren’t left with the death and blood and bitterness and imprisonment brought to us courtesy of the present day prohibition.
Prohibition doesn’t stop use of a substance. It drives it underground and into an area where it is only regulated and controlled by people who care very little about their employees or customers. Prohibition makes the substance more valuable and it’s use more dangerous. Prohibition of a substance breeds evils and damage far worse than the substance alone could ever do.
Drugs didn’t kill Charity and Veronica Bowers. Prohibition did.
Robbie:
First, lets get something straight here, I am NOT a “kid,” I’m NOT a student, and I plan on living here in Austin, paying my taxes, and continuing to be a productive part of this community.
Second, this debate does NOT have anything to do with “conservatives” (who by the way have created the largest govt ever on Earth) or “liberals.” And it darn sure should have nothing to do with yours or any other persons ideas of what is morally right and/or wrong. Perhaps, Robbie, you should take some good advice from Hope:
“Adultery is a moral failing. Do you think the government should be arresting and fining adulterers…or fornicaters?
I think it’s fine if you believe that taking drugs is immoral. There are many who believe that one drink of wine is immoral. You should follow your standards and try to raise your children to do the same. But where I very much disagree with you is when you think it’s the government’s job, with your blessings, to enforce your idea of morality against others who might disagree with you.”
If you think otherwise Robbie, that your govt should be telling you what is and isn’t morally acceptable, and punishing you when you disagree, then perhaps you should pack up and move to Saudi Arabia, and leave Austin/Texas/USA, to those of us who can (and do) think for ourselves. 18-25 year old college students are not “kids”, and I think you probably insult them when you call them that.
And Robbie, I want you to explain to me how de-criminalizing marijuana will help “dope dealers”, but please try to make some sort of sense with your argument. Perhaps you never heard about prohibition of alcoholic beverages in the 1930′s?!? Making alcohol illegal instantly CREATED thousands upon thousands of “dope dealers.” Prohibition was a complete and utter failure, as is the prohibition of Marijuana. Oh yeah, don’t forget that Marijuana was legal under federal law until the 1930′s, just like alcohol. And just as with alcohol, de-criminalization would instantly put “dope dealers” who trade in Marijuana out of business. And it would help to lower the rate of children who use Marijuana! How you ask??
If you legalize Marijuana, putting most of those “dope dealers” out of business, then there are less places for minors to obtain it. And the legally recognized establishments will keep them from getting it.
Tokeroo hit that nail on the head:
“Because drug dealers don’t CARD, Cannabis Cafes DO!”
If you want some facts and figures that you can cross-reference, I’ll give ‘em to you Robbie.
Depending on what poll you refer to, Tokeroo wasn’t really that far off. You can find these poll numbers on The Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, online.
Poll Survey Princeton Survey Research Associates
Sponsor: Pew Research Center for the People & the Press
Field Dates: February 14-19, 2001
Sample: National adult
Sample Size: 1,513
Interview method: Telephone
ASK ALL:
Q.33 Regardless of what you think about the personal non-medical use of marijuana, do you think doctors should or should not be allowed to prescribe marijuana for medical purposes to treat their patients? {ABC 05-97}
1 Should be allowed – 1109 or about 73%
2 Should not be allowed – 320 or about 21%
9 Don’t know/Refused – 84 or about 6%
OK Tokeroo, only 2% off, which is pretty darn close.
Now for the question of whether possession of Marijuana should be a criminal offense. This is from a different poll, however it was conducted in April 2005, so it’s more relevant to now. And it can also be checked at the same place, The Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, online.
US Public Opinion on Illegal Drugs — Legalization of Marijuana Ipsos-Reid Survey of Americans [April, 2005]
(Now, I am going to read you some statements and I want you to tell me if you agree or disagree with them….Very much agree, agree somewhat, disagree somewhat, very much disagree.)…
Conviction of possession of marijuana should always result in a criminal record.
%
Very much agree 27
Somewhat agree 15
Somewhat disagree 24
Very much disagree 32
Don’t know/Refused 1
Source: Survey by Canada Institute of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars and the Canada Institute of North American Issues.
Methodology: Conducted by IPSOS-Reid, April 5- April 7, 2005 and based on telephone interviews with a national adult sample of 1,000. A parallel survey was conducted in Canada.
Data provided by The Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, University of Connecticut.
Robbie, if you add up the agrees on this question, thats about 42% who agree that possession of Marijuana should be a criminal offense.
But, add up the disagree column, and you have about 56% who think that possession should NOT be a criminal offense.
Again, Tokeroo, 4% off is pretty darn close.
And guess what Robbie, to refute you once again, here’s what you said about the polls:
“I’d lend more credence to them if the polls you were alluding to didn’t come from the UT student body or the readers of High Times.”
These are NOT polls form High Times, UT, or even NORML or SAFER buddy. These are random polls of American citizens conducted through phone interviews, and each poll sampled at LEAST 1,000 people.
Robbie, you are out of the mainstream. You’re not in touch with reality. And to use your own words once again, Robbie, your views of morality and ideas of what should or should not be legal,
“Doesn’t mean a thing to me,”
and I don’t think it means a thing to the 56% of Americans who disagree with you. End of my discussion with you Robbie.
As for Dianne, if your so worried about Mexican drug gangs crossing the border, maybe you shouldn’t worry about Americans who choose to smoke Marijuana, and start lobbying your federal government to police our borders more. I couldn’t care less if I never see any Marijuana from Mexico for the rest of my life.
And just blasting people away, that’s a nice little insight into your mind. It’s too bad you’ll be teaching your little ones such ideas of hate and violence. You almost sound like you would be happy to round them all up without charges or trials, and put them into a gas chamber. You are a sick person Dianne. I hope you come to that realization soon.
More FACTS that can be cross-referenced and checked, proving that Marijuana use is far SAFER than alcohol use.
Face the facts:
Reject the government propaganda.
The DEA’s Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young concluded: “In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death.”…
[editor's note: the rest of this post has been deleted.
Josh (and others), please feel free to link to the articles, stories, and studies that you want me/us to read or that support your views. However, I typically do not post nor host the entire works of another author, which you simply whole-sale cut and paste into the comments section.
This is not an effort to stifle or disregard your opinions...as you have been able to see, I allow dissenting views on my blog. But as I am anti-drug (to include marijuana), I don't want to host a bevy of Pro propaganda on my dime.
Any future cut 'n paste jobs will simply be deleted.]
Toke and Josh: Let’s get one thing straight. I said blast the DRUG GANGS off the face of the earth and I stand by what I said.
My concern is for innocent people such as border patrol agents who are killed by drug gangs. How would you like to have a job protecting this country’s borders knowing that drug cartels are offering $50,000 to anyone who kills a border patrol agent and this in fact is happening?
I don’t give a damn what you think of me or what you call me, but don’t misquote me.
ok, so the “drug gangs” aren’t made up of people??
of course they are. do those people have children??
of course they do. so when you say to “just blast the drug gangs off the face of the earth” what are you speaking of??
you are talking about blasting PEOPLE off the face of the earth, with no questions asked.
let me see where there is a bounty on border patrol agents. i read the cnn article you referred to, but no mention of bounties. sure border patrol agents get assaulted, but so do regular law enforcement officers, much more frequently than border patrol. so should we just blast all criminals off the face of the earth?? no charges, no trial??
we have laws in place to deal with criminals, and criminal gangs.
Dianne, I didn’t misquote you.
like I said before, you should lobby the federal government to make our borders more secure. the blasting of drug gangs, criminals, people, whatever you want to call them, off the face of the earth will not solve any problems.
btw, the subject of this debate doesn’t really have anything to do with Mexican drug cartells, does it?
We are arguing that the drug policy of our government towards Marijuana (and Marijuana only) is based on a mass dis-information campaign, which could rightly be considered a propaganda campaign, and that it is also a failure, in that Marijuana is less harmful to the user than alcohol, and the most damaging effect on the Marijuana user is the prosecution of said use by law enforcement.
Not to mention the millions of tax dollars wasted on this failed Marijuana policy. Tax dollars that would be better spent on Education, Health Care, and Social Servies.
As I said before, if I never saw Marijuana from Mexico, GOOD!
Again, the problem with Mexican drug cartells is something that the Mexican government, in conjuction with the US Federal govt, should work to solve. And legalizing Marijuana in the US would deal a major blow to said drug cartells, by lowering the value of Marijuana, and by allowing US citizens to supply themselves without fear of imprisonment.
Denver has already legalized up to 1 oz of Marijuana for adults 21 and up. And there is not any news about drug cartells taking over the city. In fact, the campaign is not being promoted in the state of Colorado. Public opinion is on our side, as is rationale and logic.
http://www.saferchoice.org/d_campus.html
http://safertexas.info/
Dianne,
TokerOO is right.
I really don’t know what to say to a person who wants to blow a certain sect of people off the face of the earth while they, themselves, enjoy a glass of red wine.
You’re talking about killing people, draining their blood, stopping their hearts, ending their lives, causing them to rot in a grave or burn in a crematorium…while you enjoy your glass of red wine? How cool are you?
Somebody with exactly your attitude…”blow em away”, killed Veronica and Charity Bowers and sent Veronica’s husband, son, and friend, into a spinning crash into a jungle river.
Veronica was a Baptist Missionary holding her baby in her lap. One prohibitionist bullet went first through that tiny chest of Charity’s, then passed right through into her mother’s chest.
We…you and I…paid for that damned bullet. We killed them both with one bullet. I am grief stricken about it. I want to see that it never again happens to anyone else.
One bullet. That should be cost effective for blowing people away. One bullet for two people. How efficient is that?
What if you and your baby are “accidentally” caught in that next “mistake”? What if someday it’s your child holding their own baby that gets a prohibitionist bullet to take them both from you at the same time.
Are you so tired and give out that you can’t even think?
I’ve been changing diapers, working and mowing lawns for a long, long time, myself. I was changing diapers when you had to wash the poop out of them by hand in the commode before you washed, bleached, and boiled them, hung them out to dry, and folded them just right and stacked them and put them away, before they went through the same rounds again.
My mother had to iron diapers that froze on the line before she could get the second clothespin on them. Raising babies isn’t easy…but you’ve got it easier than the women who came before you. Believe me. I’ve changed diapers today, this very day…the new and easier way now, though. Disposable diapers are a wonder.
I’ve also mowed many a mile with a no motor mower as well as the powered type. I’ve worked many, many eight and ten and twelve hour shifts and more than a few 16 hour ones…in addition to the 24 hour a day job of being a mother. I know what “tired” is. I’ve had the honor of raising four remarkable, successful, and good people to adulthood and now I have the joy of babysitting my grandchildren whenever I get the opportunity.
Life is hard. Life is very hard for most people and hideously hard for a lot of people.
What’s going on in your life that you could kill or have killed, so easily and thoughtlessly?
You have your drug…your red wine. Why do you want to kill and imprison those who prefer a different drug? All drugs are substances just like your red wine, except when they are medicine, just like your red wine. Why, in the name of God, would you want to kill people because of their desire to use, smuggle, or sell a substance?
Like TokerOO said, you end the violence when you end the prohibition. How many Budweiser and Coors dealers, wineries, or vintners have shootouts and murders over territory? I think they stopped that when prohibition of alcohol ended.
Your drug, alcohol, can kill with intoxication just like the so called “hard drugs”. How many times have we heard of a college student, usually a freshman, drinking himself to death? Quite a few. There’s a few every single year.
Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol can all be poison or even deadly in high enough doses. Peanuts can kill some people. How many times have you read or seen on the news, “College student dies from marijuana intoxication”?
The people who are trying to reform drug policy in this country are using what bare scraps of energy they have left after living their also full lives, to try to see that their children aren’t left with the death and blood and bitterness and imprisonment brought to us courtesy of the present day prohibition.
Prohibition doesn’t stop use of a substance. It drives it underground and into an area where it is only regulated and controlled by people who care very little about their employees or customers. Prohibition makes the substance more valuable and it’s use more dangerous. Prohibition of a substance breeds evils and damage far worse than the substance alone could ever do.
Drugs didn’t kill Charity and Veronica Bowers. Prohibition did.
The mindset of the prohibitionist is not unlike that of the witch burner, and the perpetraters of the Inquistion.
We’re going to change these laws, just like our kind before us ended witch burning, the Inquisition, slavery, and child labor and the last prohibition that caused more harm than good.
Sorry about those extra posts! I wrote it last night and it didn’t seem to go in so I broke it up and reposted it today.
My apologies for cluttering up the thread with double posts.
Robbie, you said, “Sorry, but when ,em>your moral choice is counter productive to the better good of society and is also a minority choice (and let’s not kid ourselves here, kids, drug use is counter productive to the better good of society), we can impose our moral values on you.”
I believe that YOUR moral choice, prohibition, is very counter productive to the better good of society. It’s right in front of your eyes, man. Why do you refuse to see it?
Do you actually know what a democratic republic is about? What we had…but doesn’t appear that we’ve kept, as Ben Franklin told the woman outside the meeting house of the founding fathers. “Madam, we have given you a republic…if you can keep it.” Thanks to people like yourself, we’ve not kept it. It’s supposed to be about protecting the minorities from being “ruled” by the majority. It’s supposed to protect minorities from a cruel majority and give the minorities a voice that can be heard.
Do you not know that the original drug prohibition laws were founded brazenly …for purely racial reasons? It’s true. Do you not know that “marihuana can cause a black man to look you in the eye and be brazen enough to step on a white man’s shadow.”
Do you not know that the white men who made those laws feared that their drugs of choice gave the “lower races” the power to seduce white women?
Today’s prohibitionists don’t have a clue what they are doing…but they damn sure want to keep on doing it. Prohibition helps keep the black, and brown, and yellow man that you are unnaturally afraid of behind bars…where you don’t have to be so afraid they’ll slip up on you in the dark and you don’t have to worry about them seducing your women.
Oh the self righteous….beautiful beings they are…”Like whitewashed sephulcres…but inside they are full of rot, decay, and dead men’s bones.”
“It’s not what goes into a man that makes him unclean…but what comes out of him…out of his heart…that makes him unclean.”
Ok ..In all my time on this blog, I have never encountered such screwed up people. People, who would defend DRUG GANG KILLERS. People who supposedly are grandmothers. I’m incredulous, simply incredulous. One toke over the line doesn’t even come close to describing these idiots.
I’m done with this insanity and if there ever comes a vote to legalize marijuana, I swear, any thought I ever had that it was a relatively harmless drug has changed and I will not only vote to keep it illegal, I will campaign to keep it illegal.
Chop, chop, chop. God bless you Hope. Thanks Josh. Dianne, we mean you no ill will. Please, please educate yourself and others about the harm caused by this bogus War on Some Drugs. We are ALL Americans. We’re not against the cops, we’re against Cannabis Prohibition. Please think of how easy it would be to end the madness. For ALL of us. Protect your children from the black market. Legalize Cannabis/Hemp. For health and happiness. This would go farther than anything else to heal the relationship between the People and the Police.
God bless everyone who fights for truth and justice.
Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
That’s OK Dianne, because like I told Robbie,
“you are out of the mainstream. You’re not in touch with reality. And to use Robbie’s words once again, Dianne, your views of morality and ideas of what should or should not be legal,
“Doesn’t mean a thing to me,â€
and I don’t think it means a thing to the 56% of Americans who disagree with you. End of my discussion with you Dianne.”
We don’t support anyone who kills without thought, whether it be a “drug gang” or some self-righteous, holier-than-thou, wino, who thinks she is better than people who smoke Marijuana on their own time, without bothering anyone else.
Enjoy your bubble bath.
Does anyone see where we supported Drug Gang Killers? Anyone?? This happens a lot when prohibitionists are confronted with reality. Everything they have been told about Druuuuuggs (except of course the legal, Dr. Pushed, Government forced preSCRIPTion Drugs and ALKEEHAWL) is bad. Their best defense yet against mountains of evidence to the contrary, is: Drugs Are Bad…Ummmmmkay? Especially that dang “Marijuana”. (Which most of you have no idea where the term marihuana comes from. Hint. It does not refer to Cannabis, it refers to tobacco, and the misuse of it by a Racist Bigot)
We respect the laws that are just in this country. It’s the ones that take good parents away from their children, forcing children into a nightmare of instability and strange surroundings and abusive cituations. Cituations they would never have encountered with their parents. The laws that tear apart marriages and relationships and friendships because someone decided to think for themselves, without the governments permission. The ones created so many decades ago out of RACISM, CLASSISM, FASCISM. The laws designed to remove Natural Competition from the so called FREE MARKET. No patent, No profit. The laws designed to keep black men imprisoned and the black population dependent on the government instead of their own otherwise law abiding brothers, fathers, sisters, mothers. I am defending only those persecuted and prosecuted for Cannabis. I defend no murderers, rapists, child molestors, batterers, or cheapskates. I am protesting only the laws and lies of the Drug Enforcement Agency, ONDCP, and FDA, against a wonderful, health giving plant, Cannabis Sativa.
Dianne says:
I’m done with this insanity and if there ever comes a vote to legalize marijuana, I swear, any thought I ever had that it was a relatively harmless drug has changed and I will not only vote to keep it illegal, I will campaign to keep it illegal.
And all because she was presented with the other side of the story.
Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
Dianne, you said, “We’d rather our government would just blast the drug gangs off the face of the earth while we enjoy a glass of good red wine and a hot bath full of bubbles.”
You didn’t say “Drug Gang Killers”.
Nobody here is defending “killers”.
Nobody is defending drugs or gangs.
I won’t “defend” any of those things…drugs, including alcohol, marijuana, nicotine, and caffiene…and especially killers.
However, and because of all those things…drugs, including alcohol, killers, gangs, and corruption, I am, most certainly… disagreeing with your defense of prohibition of substances.
My disgust with prohibition of drugs is very much about the unnecessary killing…on both sides and every where in between.
You, Dianne are the only participant, that I recall, in this thread that wanted to kill anyone, which I assume is what you meant by “…just blast the drug gangs off the face of the earth while we enjoy a glass of good red wine and a hot bath full of bubbles. When you say, “Blasting” them “off the face of the earth”, you mean “killing”. Right?
TokerOO said, “This happens a lot when prohibitionists are confronted with reality.”
Yes, it does…and another thing that usually happens is that when confronted with the truth about the WoD, they immediately resort to calling us names, like “idiot”.
Actually, I’ve had the honor of a couple of prohibitionists who actually said to me, after they really listened to me, “Hope, you may be right. I’ve got to think about it some more.”
But usually they call me names. I’ve even been called a “silly rabbit”.
@@07Ok ..In all my time on this blog, I have never encountered such screwed up people. People, who would defend DRUG GANG KILLERS. People who supposedly are grandmothers. I’m incredulous, simply incredulous. One toke over the line doesn’t even come close to describing these idiots.@@00
Dianne, why do you harbor such hate in your heart? I pray for your troubled soul. You have placed your ideology above your duty to be a human being. People are more important than you realize, even if they believe different than you.
Imho, the only folks that support cannabis prohibition are those that are either very ignorant of the topic or those that are dealers themselves. When you support cannabis prohibition you are increasing the value of that plant to be worth it’s weight in gold. Alcohol prohibition was a complete failure and that’s why it was repealed. Cannabis prohibition is even more disastrous but we can learn from the mistakes we made throughout history or we will be doomed to repeat them.
What ever happened to Robbie??
Maybe, hopefully, he’s beginning to face the facts.
!STOP MARIJUANA PROHIBITION!
Don’t blame Dianne for her opinion, she only knows what she has been taught – prejudice and hate.
The black market is primarily sustained by marijuana sales. If marijuana were distributed and regulated by the government, the black market would collapse. The only way to stop law enforcement from killing, and being killed, is to legalize and regulate Cannabis for adult use similar to the way alcohol and nicotine are regulated.
I said earlier that we wasted “millions of dollars” prosecuting Marijuana offenses, but I was way off.
Here’s a real number on that subject:
$7.6 billion: That’s the annual cost to US taxpayers for the enforcement of state/local marijuana laws, approximately $10,400 per marijuana arrest.
Everyone involved in this debate should think about that.
$7.6 billion of your tax dollars, wasted on something that is safer than beer. Very sad when you think about all of the cuts our govt has made to Federal Student Loan Programs, Medicaid programs, etc. etc.
This info should be plastered everywhere so all can see how their tax dollars are wasted on bad govt. policy.
What kind of discussion is this?
We give you our reasons for why we feel the way we do. What are your reasons for feeling the way you do?
We all know that some drugs are truly dangerous.
How do you feel about the use of the automobile and natural gas?
What about prescription and over the counter drugs that are capable of inducing death and illness? How do you feel about that?
How about cleaning products and insect and rat poisons commonly available to the public. How do you feel about that?
What about Everclear? I’ve never tasted it, but my stomach roils at the thought.
Hope — I’m glad you asked.
Someone thought I was being contradictary in my support of legalizing medicinal use marijuana vs. the continued illegalization of recreational use marijuana.
But there is no contradiction. Let me give you a real world example: Morphine. There are legitimate and legal medical uses for this drug. But it’s recreational use is illegal. And I fully support that distinction. I believe that there are many drugs that have medicinal value, but are still harmful drugs when the sole use is getting high.
Marijuana falls into this camp, too.
Bottom line: you are not arguing for medicinal use marijuana; you want the complete decriminialization of marijuana. You happen to believe that a majority of American’s share your opinions — but that a few people (such as myself) are simply “imposing our moral” standards against you, the many.
But this couldn’t be further from the truth. My evidence? The ballot box.
In 2005 alone, there were 33 ballot initiatives in the Unites States concerning the legalization of marijuana (some of those initiatives were for medicinal use, while many more were for complete decriminalization). Of those 33 inititives, only two passed — both of them for medicinal use.
Look at the history of voting on legalization of marijuana — it is defeated resoundingly each and everytime it is voted on. Why? Because the majority of Americans believe that the recreational use of this drug should remain illegal. If Americans truly wanted it legalized, it’s just a ballot away from being so.
20 years from now, kids will still be fighting to get high legally. And 20 years from now, it’ll still be illegal.
In the world of sports, we call this “scoreboard”.
Hey I wanna play God too!
Me ‘n my rich republican friends were sittin’ ’round the office discussing the sad state of affairs in the American sport scene.
Everybody agreed that football was OK, but there was a resounding ‘here here!’ when it was suggested that Basketball should be ‘wiped off the face of the earth!’
We agreed that the direction that had been taken is contrary to our intentions, and that some Basketball sports stars make far too much money.
We needed to find a good reason, a ‘justification’ as it were to lobby Congress to illegalize Basketball. Here is what we came up with;
#1. Basketball players are almost all Black. Black basketball players entice a lot of white women into their beds- got to protect the white women!
#2. Basketball players are role models for street gangs.
#3. The game of basketball itself teaches wrong social attituides and behavior in the young.
#4. Basketball is the gateway to other unsavory sports such as Ping Pong (which is a favorite of the chinks), and backgammon (those Arabs play that!)
The real clincher though is number 5;
#5. Statistics gathered by our pollsters show that young men who play basketball, and the young men who watch the game, are more likely to refuse military service than those who don’t.
We knew we had it then.
Someone brought up the point of the ‘voting public’ and what they might make of the measure.
“Who says they get to vote on it?” answered my anonymous republican friend of much political note and power.
We all laughed.
The ‘Basketball Tax Act’ went through without a hitch.
Now that’s a Republic!
Marijuana is FAR safer than most approved medications or intoxicants, even when smoked.
“Cannabinoids and their derivatives exert their effects via “central” CB1 receptors, mostly expressed in brain and responsible for cannabinoid psychoactivity, and “peripheral” CB2 receptors, mostly expressed in the immune system and unrelated to cannabinoid psychoactivity. Cannabinoids may be potential antitumoral agents owing to their ability to induce the regression of various types of tumors, including lung adenocarcinoma, glioma, and thyroid epithelioma…
See also.
Drug war IS crime.We have proof.
Let’s have a short history lesson.
In 1619 the Virginia Assembly passed legislation requiring every farmer to grow hemp.
[editor's note: the rest of this post has been deleted.
Josh, please feel free to link to the site/reference. But please refrain from cutting and pasting without proper site attribution or linking.]
Robbie, I know I said that my discussion with you was over, but I changed my mind. Sorry
I wanted to ask you a few questions.
Do you know the facts about alcohol consumption in this country and the effects it has?
Do you know the facts about Marijuana and it’s effects? (not counting criminal reprecussions)
Here’s some info I found which you can check through the National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse, the Journal of the American Medical Association, British Medical Journal Lancet, U.S. Dept. Of Justice, PBS Online, and the Drug Policy Alliance:
[editor's note: the rest of this lengthy cut and paste job has been deleted.
Josh, please feel free to link to the articles, stories, and studies that you want me/us to read or that support your views. However, I typically do not post nor host the entire works of another author, which you simply whole-sale cut and paste into the comments section.
This is not an effort to stifle or disregard your opinions...as you have been able to see, I allow dissenting views on my blog. But as I am anti-drug (to include marijuana), I don't want to host a bevy of Pro propaganda on my dime.
Any future cut 'n paste jobs will simply be deleted.]
http://norml.org/
http://www.texasnorml.com/news/
http://www.saferchoice.org/d_campus.html
http://safertexas.info/
Way to go, Josh! Good work.
“We shall overcome!”
All Josh has proved is that we probably need stricter laws against alcohol related crimes — alcohol being bad doesn’t make weed good.
Legalizing weed isn’t going to curb alcoholism or alcohol related incidents. So, you’re building up a nice straw man here, Josh — but, at the end of the day (and for many, many, many days to come), dope is still illegal. Doing drugs really is bad, and it’s funny to watch you little dope fiends try to convince us othewise.
If you want to legalize dope, elect representatives who will change the laws of the land. We on the other side of the issue will elect officials who will continue to ban drugs. Let’s see whose side is more successful.
The laws of the land already forbid war waged against us, unreasonable searches and seizures, torture, fraud, the creation of monopolies and restraint of trade.
Snide dismissals of your debate opponents as dope fiends merely strengthens the resolve of we who choose to regulate our moods, pain and stress levels with the safest medication and intoxicant in the world.
So far, pot prohibition has increased youth use rates to the point where far more than half of all high school seniors admit use.
Despite Robbie’s hollow and disingenuous personal attacks, Altria, Searle, Geo Group, Exxon-Mobil/Chevron and DynCorp continue to participate unlawfully to this very day with ONDCP , DEA and PDFA, using false claims about cannabis to collect and approve federal funds. Drug war is treason, antitrust fraud, mass murder and a source of otherwise unlikely windfall profits for the incarceration and poison manufacturing industries whose products would otherwise be forced to compete with the green, seed bearing herb gifted to us all in the first lines of Genesis.
Cannabis is a complete food, with higher palatable ratios of the essential fatty acids and proteins needed for life. Her active ingredients have indisputable anticarcinogenic, neuroprotective and antimicrobial properties.
It’s not a straw man, period.
Just saying no is lying.
References upon request.
Posted by CCCCP.org
Drug war is crime. We have proof.
One more thing:
Re: “Legalizing weed isn’t going to curb alcoholism or alcohol related incidents. ”
See: http://tinyurl.com/mnsal
And: http://tinyurl.com/n934y
You all have definitely made the case, without doubt, that marijuana is a drug.
Now, with that agreement, here is a little advice from a former Director of Regulatory Affairs for a drug company. Take all of your evidence of safety and effectiveness to FDA and get it approved. You can cite all of the aboveforementioned in your application. However, you will also have a few other little things to do. First, define your Indication, i.e. what is the drug indicated for? Next, define the active ingredient according to FDA regulations and then spend a couple of years conducting rodent and dog studies to prove it is not a carcinogen and determine toxic properties, if any. While you’re doing that, define your formulation and find a manufacturing facility for the active ingredient and the formulation that meets Good Manufacturing Practices. That will take a couple more years. Next file a request for conducting trials in humans. FDA will, of course, spend some time reviewing the data you have already generated on the compound before they’ll agree that it’s safe to test in humans. Now, back to that little indication…ummm….I don’t think “gives pleasure” will cut it. Be a little more specific. Every single indication, such as “mood regulator” or “antimicrobial” or treatment/cure for certain cancers “did you say lung adenocarcinoma?” will have to be proven separately with respect to both safety and efficacy. I suggest narrowing down the list a bit or your great grandchildren will still be conducting tials 50 years from now. And…that’s just for starters. Sorry, I’m paid for any more advice than that.
And, don’t give me this “grandfathered drug” crap. It isn’t and will never be and that’s already been decided by the FDA.
Now, isn’t that easy…go for it. Might not be a good return on your investment though…I don’t see too many drug companies rushing to get approval.
No, I’m not arguing that Marijana should be a prescribed drug at all.
I’m arguing that MARIJUANA SHOULD BE LEGAL AND REGULATED EXACTLY AS BEER, WINE, ALCOHOL, ETC. And I have already given facts/proof which is comprised of information which I gathered from MULTIPLE SOURCES INCLUDING THE U.S. DEPTARTMENT OF JUSTICE, which show overwhelmingly that Marijuana is a SAFER substance than alcohol.
THESE FACTS CANNOT BE REFUTED BY ANYONE, ANYWHERE, AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE FALSE THE FACTS AND INFO I PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED……YOU CAN’T!
Interesting side note related to U.S. Border Patrol Agents:
News Story published today 3/7/06 from Brownsville, TX:
3 people were killed Sunday in Brownsville, including 2 US Border Patrol Agents (Agent Mario Gonzalez, Agent Cynthia Hernandez and her husband Jorge Carreon), by a drunk driver who is now charged with intoxication manslaughter.
Robbie:
You didn’t answer any of my questions. Why?
And if you don’t see the logic in my argument, then I think perhaps you should go back to school for Logic 101.
Sorry Dianne,
Cannabis Sativa L. was never legally prohibited.
Outrageous lies, false claims and outright perjury remain in the Congressional Record for anyone to see to this very day.
There will be no FDA process necessary because FDA will be exposed as complicit in this treasonous crime against humanity known as marijuana prohibition.
If you still have your poison pill pushing job, better make hay while the sun shines, because we are coming after you prohibitionist crooks.
Drug war is crime. We have proof.
CCCCP.org
Dianne, if you enjoy your red wine tonight with you bubble bath, do us ALL a favor. Stay home. Don’t DRIVE.
This is not a low blow. This is a reasonable request.
Robbie, you said, “I believe that there are many drugs that have medicinal value, but are still harmful drugs when the sole use is getting high.
Marijuana falls into this camp, too.”
Why do you believe Marijuana/Cannabis falls into that camp, too?
You also said, “20 years from now, kids will still be fighting to get high legally. And 20 years from now, it’ll still be illegal.”
This isn’t about getting “high legally”.
It’s about stopping the outrageous persecution of those who do choose to use marijuana/cannabis, instead of alcohol or tobacco.
Dianne, why did you say, “I swear, any thought I ever had that it was a relatively harmless drug has changed and I will not only vote to keep it illegal, I will campaign to keep it illegal.”
In other words you would vote to keep it illegal just to spite us, because you don’t like what we are saying? You would not even do what you know is right…just to be spiteful? My mom used to say, “They’re so hateful they’d cut their own nose off to spite their face.” Surely you’re brighter than that.
Robbie, you said, “…alcohol being bad doesn’t make weed good.” Alcohol and “weed” are neither bad nor good. They are substances that can be useful and helpful…both of them.
There is nothing in creation that cannot be misused. Consider the beautiful tree. Carved into and idol…it is offensive to some. It can be used for all sorts of good things, but it can also fall on you and crush you. You could jump out of the top of it and break your neck. The tree is neither good nor bad…it’s what you do with it that might be better left undone, under certain circumstances.
Probably, the worst “bad circumstance” is for people to use Cannabis as a reason to abuse and persecute, and discount another person. Using cannabis as an excuse to rob and take their possesions are part of those “bad circumstances”.
It’s a non toxic plant. Oleander is poison…they sell it at every garden store. So it’s not because it’s poison. What is it?
I can’t believe that any rational person with any knowledge and sense of true right and wrong, would criminalize and persecute people over their use of cannabis. You, Robbie and Dianne have literally called us abusive names because we merely stand with those who would like to see the persecution end, because it’s wrong…and because it’s expensive…in lives and resources lost.
What is there about the cannabis plant that causes apparently normal people, who don’t even use it, to go freakin’ nuts? It’s like they hear the word and go bonkers with hatred. Why?
Dianne…”And, don’t give me this “grandfathered drug†crap. It isn’t and will never be and that’s already been decided by the FDA.” Do you know that the Federal government has a medical marijuana program? They grow it through a university and supply it free of charge to seven people in the United States, today. They even roll it into cigarettes for them and seal it in cans with prescription labels and deliver it to their doctors. A dear friend of mine is in the program…and alive today because of cannabis.
If you are having trouble with some of the terms Jose and Josh are using when they are bringing you information about the benefits that have been proven to be a result of the application or use of cannabis, let me try to explain in easier to comprehend language.
Cancer is a growing, feeding, corrupting thing. Most of us get little abnormalities within our bodies all the time that die before they can turn into true, flesh destroying cancer.
Tobacco’s danger and connection to cancer is that it keeps cancer alive to grow. Tobacco prevents cancer from dieing.
Cannabis has exactly the opposite effect. Cannabis causes apoptosis…or programmed cell death of the irregular cells. They die.
Cannabis and it’s cannabinoids do not let cancer grow it’s own blood vessels to reach out and suck the life out of our cells and into it’s. Cannabis does not allow cancer to grow. It makes the cancer die.
Why aren’t we all thrilled about that discovery? We should be. It’s wonderful news.
Again it goes back to that insanity caused in some people when they hear the word cannabis or marijuana.
It’s a crying shame.
So the “reason” that I asked for is , “I believe that there are many drugs that have medicinal value, but are still harmful drugs when the sole use is getting high.”
Alcohol would be a better example than morphine. It has medicinal value but it can be used just to lift the spirits or calm oneself…getting high.
Apparently, you must think that marijuana has effects similar to morphine. They aren’t even similar to alcohol. The effects of marijuana/ cannabis can be medicinal, but as far as recreational use…the effects aren’t nearly as strong as alcohol….ever!
Alcohol can make a room reel, prevent you from being able to walk across a room, and make you puke, and go unconscious. It can kill you.
Cannabis does absolutely none of those things. Ever.
Cannabis can actually help you stop puking when you are having a puking problem.
I just can’t understand why you would think I am an idiot for standing with the people who want to end the persecution of cannabis users.
You are purposely refusing to listen to anything we say, aren’t you?
All the reports…and not from High Times, before you run down that road again…but real scientific reports …not bought and paid for by prohibitionists or anti-prohibitionists.
You ignore them. Why?
Do you not want to believe it. Therefore you don’t.
Does it make you feel guilty to hear this good news… because it makes you think about that time you thought it was good idea to beat the hell out of some kid and send him off to rehab or boot camp because someone found a joint in his sock drawer?
Robbie says:
In 2005 alone, there were 33 ballot initiatives in the Unites States concerning the legalization of marijuana (some of those initiatives were for medicinal use, while many more were for complete decriminalization). Of those 33 inititives, only two passed — both of them for medicinal use.
Yeah, you’re right, Robbie. We have to work our butts off every year and ONLY pass a couple initiatives a year. Basically because of people like you, who have been programmed how to think since birth. Breaking through the walls are a bit difficult when reasoning with your kind. But, hey, eleven states have passed medical cannabis laws, two after SCOTUS says the states laws are valid, but patients would still be subjected to Federal charges. Alaska did NOT vote to Re-criminalize possession of FOUR OUNCES of Cannabis in the Privacy of your Home. I believe the city of Denver voted to LEGALIZE an ounce or less of “weed”, an legalization is now being organized statewide. Las Vegas is tinkering with ditribution and sales. Wonderful, compassionate groups like ASA (Americans for Safe Access) and policy changing groups like SAFER(Safe Alternative For Enjoyable Recreation) have been born, not to mention the thousands on thousands of websites and organizing committees to discuss the War on Some Drugs by highly respected lecturers and econonists, LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) and lawyers, and doctors and nurses and medical associations, specifically because it has been brought to the Nation’s attention that the laws against cannabis are unjust, unwise, and unconstitutional. New Pharma-rations are being created to manufacture the new medicine being made from guess what? CANNABIS. States are passing laws to begin growing HEMP again, so farmers can survive and profit and KEEP THEIR FARMS!
So yes, it does get discouraging at times, but we’re doing the right thing. You’ll see.
Ah!
Love those guys at LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition).
http://www.leap.cc/
Yawn . . .
DRIVERS ON PRESCRIPTION DRUG ‘IMPAIRED’
from: http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm
DRIVERS ON PRESCRIPTION DRUG ‘IMPAIRED’
Tue Mar 07 2006 18:44:22 ET
With a tendency to stare zombie-like and run into stationary objects, a new species of impaired motorist is hitting the roads — the Ambien driver, the NEW YORK TIMES is planning to front on Wednesday.
Ambien, the nation’s best-selling prescription sleeping pill, is showing up with regularity as a factor in traffic arrests, sometimes involving drivers who later say they were sleep-driving and have no memory of taking the wheel after taking the drug.
Ambien drivers tend to stand out from other under-the-influence motorists for behavior like driving in the wrong direction or slamming into light poles or parked vehicles, as well as seeming oblivious to the arresting officers, according to a forensic scientists.
see also: http://tinyurl.com/llyja
Hey, Hope, let’s make a kazillion flyers that say: “Cannabis Cures Cancer!” Let’s get in a hemp powered ultra-lite aircraft and distribute them from the Heavens. Because two people here who have missed the boat completely that’s headed to the Port of Truth about Cannabis, haven’t made one comment on the (scientificly varifiable) FACT that Cannabis Cures Cancer. Personally, I have proof. Many people do.
Robbie, Dianne, you are hiding behind ignorant laws which are being stripped away even as we speak. It’s not us “potheads” who are doing this. Doctors, Lawyers, LEOs, Congessmen, Economists, Senators, Prosecutors, Judges, (Some) Politicians, Jounalists, (Obedient) Christians, Activists, (I should shorten this by just saying “people from ALL walks of life and professions) are ratcheting up to dismantle the Bogus War on Some Drugs. Don’t be sore losers. Join the flow of Truth. It’s quite refreshing!
If Cannabis Didn’t Cause Lung Cancer, They Would Tell Us Right? And If It Might Prevent It??? Or Cure It?? The Sound of Silence. Posted by Richard Cowan on 2005-08-18 16:20:00
Source:
Posted August 18, 2005
Analysis by Richard Cowan
Pot Shrinks Tumors; Government Knew in ’74 —By Raymond Cushing
In 1974 researchers learned that THC, the active chemical in marijuana, shrank or destroyed brain tumors in test mice. But the DEA quickly shut down the study and destroyed its results, which were never replicated — until now…
[editor's note: the rest of this lengthy article has been deleted.
Hope (and others), please feel free to link to the story, so that those who wish to read the rest of the article may do so.]
It’s amazing that the puritanical “powers that be” even allowed us to know that red wine could actually have health benefits.
Did I miss something, or did the “editor” edit out all of the relevant info from Hope’s posting about this?
link to the full story:
by Raymond Cushing — San Antonio Current, March 29, 2001
The term medical marijuana took on dramatic new meaning in February 2000, when researchers in Madrid announced they had destroyed incurable brain tumors in rats by injecting them with THC, the active ingredient in cannabis….
[edited by Robbie: yes, I did edit many of yours and Hope's lengthy cut and paste posts. I did however keep the links that you posted so that others can read the full articles that you cut and paste from their respective sites. If you'd like to post comments in your own words with links to supporting sites, please do. However, full cut and paste posts of someone else's work is not allowed.]
http://www.alternet.org/story/9257/
Pot Shrinks Tumors; Government Knew in ’74
An older article from May 2000, but interesting.
It was also printed in a San Antonio newspaper, but I havn’t had time to search their archives.
In our own words, heh? Thank you.
Do you know it’s virtually impossible to obtain permission in this country for research on marijuana unless you are trying to find things wrong with it?
Research in Israel is pointing to very positive results using cannabis to help soldiers recover from Post Traumatic Syndrome caused by painful wartime experiences.
Robbie, I never understood your reasons for believing we should maintain prohibition of marijuana other that that you “believe” that it’s bad and dangerous.
Believing that the earth was flat and that you could fall off the edge did not make it true.
I’m sure you have very good reasons for believing that marijuana is a dangerous drug, but what, exactly, are they?
Understanding the prohibitionist mindset is proving very difficult for me to grasp. Give me something besides, “It’s bad”. Why do you believe it’s bad?
People are dieing over this prohibition. Why is it important to keep it up…other than supporting the huge prison and law enforcement gadget and treatment industries?
It looks like a cash cow to me…no…make that Cash Cow, that while feeding the afore mentioned industries, is trampling others into the dirt.
Cut and Paste.
It’s something I find myself doing fairly often in trying to reason with people.
Most, if not all the time, I get the feeling from prohibitionists that they don’t give a tinker’s you know what about what I think and usually have no qualms about saying so right up front.
So, maybe, I think….they will listen to this report or that report. Maybe they will do some research and and try to make sense of some of the information available on the World Wide Web.
It’s important to speak out against the prohibition of cannabis. I have a feeling…though I doubt anyone’s interested, that it’s more important than any one of us realizes.
“If you want to legalize dope, elect representatives who will change the laws of the land.”
Unfortunately the only REAL DOPE I know of ‘got elected.’ If you want to call it that. And since when was this a ‘representative’ government. Maybe you are ‘represented’ but I can guarantee about 97% of the rest of us aren’t.
Here’s a very nice read by one of us. It is an objective look and a great explanation of High/Drunk. This lady is strong, but a sweetie!
Why?
Hmmm. I’m not sure this link will post here, but let me try.
Wage peace on war. END CANNABIS PROHIBITION NOW!
Ok, here ya go.
http://makepotlegal555.org/WHY-
Toke.
While we wait for the criminalizers to recover, it might help to review their techniques:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
– - -
Scoreboard for this page:
Truth: 100
Prohibitionists: 0
Robbie, I’m not pro-drug. I am anti-prohibition. I am anti-shooting and imprisonment of people over what they or someone else consumes. I am pro-freedom. I am pro-life. I am pro-personal responsibility. I am anti-Nanny State.
Maybe it’s genetic. I am descended in a straight line from two honored Revolutionary War Colonels who served this country, one of whom passed his surname on to me and mine.
They fought Great Britain on the soil of this country so that we could be a free people. Yes. It was just a rag tag army of rebels, but I’m for sure, not ashamed of them. They were 6x grandfathers…as in great, great, great, great, great….well you get it.
Something tells me they wouldn’t like seeing the representative government we have today representing us like they are.
Through those six generations, many in my family have served and died for this country and freedom and liberty for all of us.
I don’t know as much about one of them as I do about the one who left me his name, but I know that, for sure, one was a land holder. He was beloved in his community. I have his obituary from when he died of old age. Or I did, back a couple of computer crashes ago, and could find it again.
Considering the times, I’m sure, that he, like his General Washington, grew cannabis hemp on his land. Those same men today would be attacked like criminals by the government they gave us for doing that.
They didn’t just grow cannabis for rope, cloth, seed, and feed. We have letters that show that George Washington “sexed” plants just like a grower today would, to increase it’s medicinal or intoxicant value.
If that’s a picture of you, Robbie, at the top of this page, I can imagine that you are pretty set in your ways and pretty cranky about any notion of changing them.
I am so sorry that so many people today refuse to see the truth about prohibition.
My interest in the present day prohibition began in earnest when someone I love dearly became involved in the WoD, on the law enforcement side. I worried for them. I wanted to know everything I could about what was going on with the War on Drugs.
What I found was appalling. We need to reform our drug policy completely.
Being a reformer is rather an unpleasant duty…but at least it’s not during the Little Ice Age and I don’t have to trudge or go horseback through the ice and snow that my forbears struggled through.
Is freedom and liberty for all worth fighting for? What do you think?
Unless someone here is able to have an intelligent conversation, I’m through handing you guys “pearls” to “trample”.
Talk to me, tell me what you believe and why…other wise, I guess I’ll have to move on to find someone who will engage in a meaningful dialogue on the subject.
It’s been interesting.
Nice site you have here.
There’s hope, Hope.
As long as Walters keeps referring to smoked marijuana as not efficacious or safer than approved poisons, he risks someone in law enforcement actually doing their job and charging him with felony crimes.
Robbie and Dianne will be back, in some form or other, like Joyce Nalepka. When they attend the Drug War Truth and Reconciliation Convention, things will be different.
Hey Robbie, I doubt you’re paying attention, but if you are here is the most recent poll numbers I could find.
This poll conducted by Zogby Internationalwithin the first few months of 2006, included responses from 1004 “likely voters”, and showed that 46% of those polled said they support allowing states to regulate marijuana like alcohol, with 49% opposed, and 5% undecided.
But, esat coast and west coast respondents were at 53 and 55 % respectively.
Respondents’ support for marijuana law reform was strongly influenced by age and political affiliation. Nearly two-thirds of 18-29 year-olds (65 percent) and half of 50-64 year-olds think federal law should be amended to allow states the option to regulate marijuana, while majorities of 30-49 year-olds (58 percent) and seniors 65 and older (52 percent) oppose such a change.
Among those respondents who identified themselves as Democrats, 59 percent back taxing and regulating marijuana compared to only 33 percent of Republicans. Forty-four percent of Independents and 85 percent of Libertarians say they supported the law change.
Respondents’ opinions were also influenced by religious affiliation. Nearly 70 percent of respondents who identified themselves as Jewish, and nearly 60 percent of respondents who said they were non-religious believe that states should regulate cannabis, while only 48 percent of Catholics and 38 percent of Protestants support such a policy.
Also, a previous Zogby poll of 1024 “likely voters” showed that 61% of those polled opposed arresting and jailing non-violent marijuan consumers.
So, if you consider that the majority of US population is concentrated on the east and west coasts, it would be fair to say that the majority of Americans agree with our standpoint, that marijuana should be legal for adults to use in private on their own time.
We are the majority. It’s only a matter of time before this majority changes the existing public policy concerning marijuana.
[...] The UT Austin effort is part of a national public education effort initiated by a group called Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation (SAFER). The SAFER campaign was originally launched January 2005 on the campuses of University of Colorado – Boulder and Colorado State University. Just four months earlier, two students — Colorado State University sophomore Samantha Spady and University of Colorado freshman Lynn Bailey — had died on these campuses from alcohol poisoning. [...]