The United States of America has one of the most liberal immigration policies of any Western nation.

So you’re proposing that we model our immigration laws after the ’successful’ policies of France?

I’m all for reducing illegal immigration but I don’t support policies that increase the exploitation of undocumented workers or create a sub-caste of disaffected workers with little hope of citizenship.

Left by Preston on April 10th, 2006 at 11:01 am

What if the 10,000,000 illegals already in this country were from muslim contries? I wonder what the American people would think then? And, what will our policies be towards other than Mexicans? Any different?

Left by dianne on April 10th, 2006 at 12:33 pm

Once again, most Americans that it is preferable to decrease illegal immigration. But have you heard of the law of unintended consequences? What do you think the result of denying children education and healthcare will be? The result of spending billions on a wall of uncertain effectiveness? The result to the Mexican economy if millions of unemployed land on their shores?

Half of the proposals on the table now have the ‘feel-good’ impact of a ‘tough’ stance- yet they typically fail to address the logical conclusions of those actions.

Left by Preston on April 10th, 2006 at 1:10 pm

Well, Preston, you didn’t answer my question but I’m sure you know the answer. The people in this country would become unglued..a lot more unglued than the ports deal. I’d like to see our congressmen explain this to the American people.

I’m very concerned about health care and education for children..it’s woefully inadequate for our OWN American children. What are we going to do when we have 10-20,000,000 more immigrants over the next decade as a result of not closing our borders? What kind of country is this going to be? I’ll tell ya…it will have to be a socialistic one because no one other than the very rich will be able to be homeowners, will be able to afford healthcare or insurance, etc. The American dream will die. Maybe it’s inevitable.

Left by dianne on April 10th, 2006 at 1:37 pm

Once again- I support reducing illegal immigration- but let’s make sure the cure is not worse than the disease…

On what basis do you suppose that there will be 20 million new illegal immigrants? On what basis do you conclude that immigration makes the country poorer or home ownership more unlikely or ’socialism’ more likely.

Even by your own logic it seems to me if the government can’t afford to provide healthcare for natives or immigrants that would stand to make socialism lesslikely in this country. (But I haven’t heard much of a call for nationalizing the railroads or the steel mills since- oh- 1915…)

Left by Preston on April 10th, 2006 at 1:53 pm

On what basis do you conclude that immigration makes the country poorer or home ownership more unlikely . . .

Glad you asked: Illegal immigration is a flood of cheap labor that drives wages down. We shell out 10 billion a year to cover housing, education, health, and incarceration in California alone. It is estimated that it cost the tax payer here about $1400 a year in taxes to cover illegal immigration. That does not cover the cost of increase in heath and other insurance premiums. It has created a middle class of renters in California because no one can afford housing.

Left by 2 on April 10th, 2006 at 7:40 pm

Sure, I agree that there are short-term costs to immigration both in increased taxes and lower wages for the poorest Americans (though there are clearly benefits for Americans further up the economic ladder and I’m still not sure how home ownership is made more unattainable by the introduction of migrant workers, for instance.)

(Over the long run though it is in America’s interest to be strong and growing rather than losing global influence like Japan and Europe.)

I simply want to know how people intend to stop immigration in a way that isn’t going to have worse unintended causes. Because I want to see illegal immigration reduced and I’ve yet to hear a plan that sounds effective.

Left by Preston on April 10th, 2006 at 8:10 pm

I just ran into something interesting that relates to a long buried thread on immigration where someone was lamenting that we couldn’t get illegal immigrants to join the miliary. In fact they do, I’ve learned!

First, the law:
http://www.sss.gov/must.htm

Then a little color commentary:

MICHAEL SAYS: 3. They do not register for selective service and do not serve in the military - forcing legal Americans to defend them.

Enough said.
http://tinyurl.com/pybtq

You learn something everyday.

Left by Preston on April 11th, 2006 at 12:12 am

An interesting, rather long, article from a liberal point of view which makes a lot of sense

She blames a lot of illegal immigration on our own government nonenforcement policies and greedy corporations..I agree.

She makes the case for illegals contributing to the SS system without collecting same as a basis for enriching our country, but that’s the way the SS system stays afloat for U.S. citizens..they count on those CITIZENS who die after their kids are past 18 but before age 65 so they get to keep everything the deceased paid in and use it all for other than his/her family members (exactly case of my deceased husband).

Here’s a plan Preston. Allow guest workers with a timely path to citizenship, however EMPLOYERS must pay them minimum wage PLUS pay an excise tax of say $.50/hr to be divided between the state and federal government until the guest worker becomes a citizen. The excise tax used to offset the costs of healthcare, education, roadways etc. for guest workers and their families as well as border enforcement. SS paid by guest workers goes into their own account for their use once they are citizens and they get the same minimum wage that citizens get. The employers get the benefit of workers who will do jobs that U.S. citizens will not do so entire industries won’t collapse (tongue in cheek on that one). Granted the greedy employers will pass on costs to those who consume their goods..well that’s still ok with me.

Left by dianne on April 11th, 2006 at 6:20 am

Regarding my previous stats, they are all over the net. Bear Stearns was one source. In one year alone, 2004, 3,000,000 immigrants.

Left by dianne on April 11th, 2006 at 6:37 am

Dianne- at first look I like your proposal. To take your idea my own direction, I’d let the market (with direction from the government) determine immigration levels. So essentially, if you could get a job you can get legal working papers. However, this would only apply for, say, 500,000 people a year. Then for the next 500,000 people a year their employers have to pay that 50 cent (or whatever) tax. For the next 500,000 people the tax is doubled. And so on until the tax is so high that employers would not sponsor low wage workers but still might sponsor valuable employees.

Whatever- I don’t know if that works or not. But basically we are in agreement that illegal immigration won’t slow so long as employers are able to hire them (particularly below the minimum wage.) I think if we start there half the problem will go away- but agribusiness will fight tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

I simply resist plans that do things like take kids out of school or uses the agencies like OSHA to conduct immigrant ’stings’.

The first is a social disaster- the second actually encourages employers to hire undocumented workers because in the future they’ll be afraid to turn them in for illegal work safety practices.

Left by Preston on April 11th, 2006 at 9:00 am

Thanks for the link, Dianne- this was amazing:

An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois.”

And the government does nothing about it. Not one penalty was levied by the federal government against an employer in 2004 for hiring undocumented workers.

Basically, if we could get the government to enforce existing laws maybe we can save a billion dollars on building a giant fence.

Left by Preston on April 11th, 2006 at 9:06 am

Preston — from one of the links you provided:

Five percent of those serving in our military are illegal immigrants.

This is not true. Which is probably why the author did not even provide a link to where they found the info — stating only that they got it from the National Immigration Law Center.

Well, a search through the National Immigration Law Center found this article:

Facts About Immigrant Particpation in the Military, which does state:

There were 68,826 foreign-born persons serving in the United States armed forces — almost 5 percent of those serving.

There is a difference — a huge difference between a foreign-born person and an ILLEGAL immigrant.

I called my brother this morning, the one who has been in the US Army for 16 years, and commands his own Recruiting Station. He laughed when I asked him about the “5% illegal immigrant” stat.

He said in order for an illegal to get into the military, they would have to have very convincing and extensive documentation, such as a birth certificate, SSN, etc. Plus they would have to be completely fluent in English and be able to pass all standardized military entrance exams.

Are immigrants a vital part of the US Military? Without a doubt.

Are ILLEGAL immigrants? No.

Left by Robbie on April 11th, 2006 at 9:32 am

Neither party has any will to enforce existing laws. These laws have been on the books for over 20 years. It was the big selling point for the 1986 amnesty.

It’s not immigration – it’s Illegal immigration. Why do you continue to blur the two? Short term? I’ve lived in California for 26 years. That is not short term and I have seen it run into the ground. Illegal immigrants take more than they contribute. A two bedroom single family home that may have rented for $500 can instead be rented to 25 illegals (and no, I’m not exaggerating - they are known as clownhouses) for $3000. We pay higher taxes. We pay more for our own necessities. People have less money to buy a house and at higher costs. The average home in LA county is about 400k last I heard. So where are these magical benefits to subsidizing the poor of Mexico? Because I have to fund healthcare for illegal immigrants my health insurance premium is close to $500 a month. No body eats that much fucking lettuce!

Left by 2 on April 11th, 2006 at 9:46 am

I don’t think I am blurring the two. Honestly, I don’t think ‘clownhouses’ are the cause of escalating housing prices but once again- just enforce the law! I completely support that.

Left by Preston on April 11th, 2006 at 10:02 am

I believe 2 is correct in his assertion about housing. See p. 7 of this fascinating report.

However, Preston is also correct in his statement about enforcement, and the blame lays flat at the feet of our congressional lawmakers, past and present, who allow greedy employers to get away with it, who in turn entice the illegals to come here in the first place. It needs to be stopped but won’t be until we demand that our so-called congressional representatives do the damn job they are paid to do!
Unless they put teeth and penalties into their bills, nothing will change.

Left by dianne on April 11th, 2006 at 11:20 am

From the RiehlWorldView:

I understand, as should most, that it is not the Mexican people who are at fault as regards America’s current illegal immigration problems. The root cause is our proximity to what is increasingly becoming a tragically failed third world state.

Yes, that is the root cause.

Unfortunately, the leaders of that third world state (Fox) are more inclined to export poverty to the US than to fix it at home. Equally unfortunately, our inept politicians are as disinclined to find real solutions here either.

Left by Robbie on April 11th, 2006 at 11:36 am

I agree that strengthening the Mexican economy is the best way to slow immigration. So I was surprised by the tone of this wikipedia piece that suggests that the economy is growing pretty well there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico

Left by Preston on April 11th, 2006 at 11:56 am

First of all, I have to laugh at Robbie’s brother who said:

“in order for an illegal to get into the military, they would have to have very convincing and extensive documentation, such as a birth certificate, SSN, etc. Plus they would have to be completely fluent in English and be able to pass all standardized military entrance exams.”

Do you know how easy it is to get this Documentation. And the testing…Ha Ha…..everybody knows that a five year old could pass the military entrance exam.

And to the wonderfully bright Dianne who asked:

“What if the 10,000,000 illegals already in this country were from muslim contries? ”

Dianne, the majority of these immigrants are of hispanic heritage not muslim. And yes it would be much different. Do you know why? Because of all the hispanic immigrants in this country the majority is mexican and Mexico has never posed a threat to our society the way the muslim countries have.

And to 2 the biggest idiot of all:

I can tell you why your healthcare is so much. It is not because of the illegals. It is because of the the lazy Americans (of all races) that keep having children and don’t wanna work. That is why your healthcare is high. And what in god’s name makes you think that the price of housing will get any better if the illegals are deported? I mean c’mon, lets use our brain here. These mexicans come over here to work to provide a better life for their families. They get paid less than minimum wage to build the house that you are living in so that you can get it for 400k. Well , guess what …as greedy as these general contractors, architects, and so on are, if they have to pay workers more than minimum wage then to get their money back, they will charge you more for your home.

My great grandparents were illegals from Mexico. They came over here to give my grandparents , parents, me, and my kids better opportunities. I was born here because of them. But you know…I hope they do send them all back so that all of you greedy ass white people can start cleaning your own damn houses and start mowing your own damn lawns. I would love to see how you live then. All of the things that most Americans are too lazy to do themselves these illegals come over here to do for very little pay.

Maybe you should watch “A day without a mexican”

Left by maria on April 17th, 2006 at 2:50 pm

All of the things that most Americans are too lazy to do themselves these illegals come over here to do for very little pay.

Our Mexican housekeeper gets paid ~$15/hour. We mow our own grass. The Mexicans we were paying to remodel our house? ~$31/hour.

The local day labor site guarantees the laborers (almost all Mexican, almost all illegal) $10/hour.

Your “very little pay” just doesn’t play in the real world.

Left by Robbie on April 17th, 2006 at 3:37 pm

Well then you are one in a very few that pay them what they are worth because all of the illegals that I know (some of them in my own family) are getting less than minimum wage. So don’t give me that crap about how wonderfully they are doing in Austin.

Left by maria on April 18th, 2006 at 8:47 am