You can fool some of the people some of the time ..

But, not when you can look in your own back yard and know the real story.

Left by dianne on August 28th, 2006 at 1:59 pm

correction..

But not when THEY can look in their own backyards …

Left by dianne on August 28th, 2006 at 2:00 pm

This comes to no surprise to me. It didnt take a study for soomeone with common sense to see what was going on. Many latinos who are in this country legally look down on the illegal immigrants. They want more harsher immigration laws out there to prevent illegals from coming across the border. Its easy to spot them the difference between the two. Usually the legals are the ones that actually speak english fluently.

Left by anonymous on August 28th, 2006 at 2:58 pm

Usually the legals are the ones that actually speak english fluently.

It’s a pretty standard rule of thumb that by the second generation the children of immigrants are fluent in two languages and by the third generation every immigrant speaks English as his first language.

People seem to be under the impression that our grandparents and great-grandparents learned English through correspondence courses on the ship to America rather than getting by in the way that many immigrants do today.

Left by Preston on August 28th, 2006 at 3:22 pm

I am fourth generation American. I was lucky enough to have my Slovak great-grandmother until I was 12. She knew no english when she came to this country. She spoke with a thick slovak accent, but it never hindered conversation. I never heard her and my grandmother (her daughter) converse in Slovak, except for an occassional word or phrase if she was confused about something. My mother (3rd generation) spoke no slovak at all.

The difference that I believe is that she HAD to learn english. There were no bi-lingual documents coming from school with her children. Even though there was a slovak community, they weren’t coddled and helped - to survive, they had to learn.

This is the third week of school, and when that first information packet comes home with your child, ever paper is english on one side and spanish on the other. Why do they need to learn? They don’t have to.

Funny thing I noticed though - a few papers were not printed in Spanish. Those included the volunteer form, which lists opportunities for volunteering at the school (in english only) and requests for the school fund (which is a PTA fund to help with extra projects) which was also in English only.

Left by Terr on August 28th, 2006 at 3:43 pm

The difference that I believe is that she HAD to learn english. There were no bi-lingual documents coming from school with her children. Even though there was a slovak community, they weren’t coddled and helped - to survive, they had to learn.

This just isn’t true. There were dozens of foreign language newspapers and radio station just in New York at the height of European immigration up to the 1920’s. It simply isn’t a realistic expectation to assume that every immigrant will acheive the level of fluency that a native born American has.

In any case, I agree with the larger point that we should enforce immigration laws- but it doesn’t honor our ancestors to pretend that their journeys to this country were easy or that they were willing to shed their cultures like an old coat.

Left by Preston on August 28th, 2006 at 4:35 pm

In any case, I agree with the larger point that we should enforce immigration laws- but it doesn’t honor our ancestors to pretend that their journeys to this country were easy or that they were willing to shed their cultures like an old coat.

My ancestors weren’t in New York City. They were in upstate and very rural Pennsylvania. They were coal miners. There was ONE newspaper that served a couple of counties. It was a melting pot of Irish, Polish, Welsh, Italian and Slovak peoples. They were defined by their churches. My mother’s family belonged to ‘the slovak church’. There was, of course, the italian church, the polish church, etc. Many many churches, with their own communities. But…. the only thing they all had in common was a need to be American. And to learn the language. It was not the Towel of Babel by any means. Lots of accents, but in English.

I would never assume that their journey was ‘easy’ as you say. Having done intensive research on my family tree through census documents, I can tell you that I lost two great-grandfathers to the coalmines in their early twenties. Women remarried because of necessity. Large numbers of children that needed to be fed. My grandfather was already working the coalmines as a breaker-boy at the age of 11. Easy? No.

But my grandmother’s neighborhood was a mixture of western and eastern european immigrants and their families, and they had one thing in common: they had “America” in common. While they had their other ’social’ communities via their churches, the neighborhood was as American as a Norman Rockwell painting (with much better food).

Left by Terr on August 28th, 2006 at 4:49 pm

Should be “tower of babel”….

Left by Terr on August 28th, 2006 at 4:50 pm

I like the the Towel of Babel

Left by Preston on August 28th, 2006 at 5:56 pm

But my grandmother’s neighborhood was a mixture of western and eastern european immigrants and their families, and they had one thing in common: they had “America” in common. While they had their other ’social’ communities via their churches, the neighborhood was as American as a Norman Rockwell painting (with much better food).

I totally agree. I just don’t see the difference any difference in today’s immigrants. They will adapt just as our ancestors did and unfortunately they are reviled just as our families were.

Incidentally, my people were German and as this article suggests they formed clusters and slowly but surely assimilated into Amercian culture. (A process that was speeded by the hatred of all things German that intensified through the World Wars).

Left by Preston on August 28th, 2006 at 6:07 pm

I just don’t see the difference any difference in today’s immigrants. They will adapt just as our ancestors did and unfortunately they are reviled just as our families were.

It most certainly IS different today.

When my great-grandfather came here in 1909, he was a laborer in the coal mines. They lived in company housing and shopped in company stores. They didn’t even have electricity and indoor plumbing until the 1920s. So radio? Newspapers? No…. they were working for Americans in America and they had to learn English at least. Yes, they had a small community of fellow immigrants, but if you wanted to work and function, you had to learn english. It was NOT easy. I would never even suggest that it is easy to learn another language. But millions of people managed to do it.

Today? Television is everywhere - even the poorest families have tv. It has become a necessity. Multiple spanish-language channels. If they are literate, they can read the spanish versions of People and Cosmo and any number of newspapers which I encounter everytime I got to the supermarket. Speaking of the supermarket, in the past few years the number of products with spanish labels has increased.

The schools have to deal with American-born children of Spanish-speaking parents starting school who do not speak english! This is a burden to the schools. Not to mention that the children start out at a disadvantage. Yes, children learn quickly. But if they are born in this country and do not speak english at the age of five? That’s just ridiculous.

You said in your earlier post that

People seem to be under the impression that our grandparents and great-grandparents learned English through correspondence courses on the ship to America rather than getting by in the way that many immigrants do today.

It is quite the opposite actually. My ancestors (and many others who came to this country prior to the second half of the 20th century) had a much more difficult time learning the language and the culture. Because no one was printing magazines and food labels and school correspondence in their native tongue! You say there were foreign language papers and radios in NYC in the 20s…. That’s fine. My slovak great-grandfather was illiterate in his native language and never learned to read or write! And, like I said, no electricity or plumbing. Radio? A luxury that a poor coalminer in 1909 could never afford. He may have been illiterate, but he was able to learn enough english to communicate. I wouldn’t say he was ‘fluent’, but he didn’t need someone around to translate everything for him.

Immigrants today have a difficult time in some ways, but certainly they do not have difficulty in communication because their language is everywhere….. In many ways, they have it much easier. But I honestly think we do them a disservice by assuming they ‘can’t’ learn to speak english.

Economically, the ones who do not learn english are going to always be in the underclass. If they do not learn the language, they will be of no help to their children’s education because they won’t be able to assist them with their homework (as a parent, that is a major part of my evenings). By not making them learn the language of this country, and in effect the language of international business, we are condemning them to a life of low-level employment and/or poverty.

Left by Terr on August 28th, 2006 at 7:05 pm

Terr, well said.

I come from Norwegian ancestors. They were robbed of everything they owned somewhere along their trekk to Wisconsin. They actually lived in caves in Wisconsin and hired themselves out to the local farms until they somehow managed to get their own. They weren’t slaves but many of them didn’t live as well as some slaves did. Anyhow, to the point, they did anything they had to do to survive and assimilate. Of course they went where many other Norwegians went, to farm country. That was what they knew how to do. And, they learned English. My grandmother spoke it well, second generation. My father was fluent in both languages; however, speaking it in front of the kids only when we weren’t supposed to know something. Regretably, I know only a few phrases.

You can teach a child to speak several languages. It is not necessary to speak in their native tongue. That’s a proven fact. To do otherwise is not only demeaning to the ability of the child, it is out and out racism in my opinion. This is America. Our language is English. If you want to live here, do what we do…or leave.

Left by dianne on August 28th, 2006 at 8:08 pm

Dianne, your ancestors likely came here when things were much more difficult for immigrants. I am tired of hearing that today’s immigrants have it so bad. Yes, there are prejudices. All ethnic groups dealt with that, sadly, in times past. At least they don’t have to see signs saying “No Irish need apply”. Why? Because an employer who would do that would be slapped with a fine. Immigrants today have civil rights groups and advocates working for them. They can get welfare and medical care, even if they aren’t citizens. There was none of that for past generations of immigrants. ALL immigrants to this country in all generations have had difficulties. Anyone who tries to minimize any group of European (or other) immigrants and their struggles by saying that Mexicans have it tougher is full of #*@(. The only difference is that mass communication, well-organized, publicized and news coverage makes it seem as though it is ‘harder’ for the Mexicans.

I just realized something. There are Mexican immigrants, and then there is “everyone else”. And it seems to me, in Texas at least, “everyone else” (in terms of immigrants) do not get the advantages that Mexican immigrants get.

There is a very large Asian immigrant population in my neighborhood - almost all of them are immigrants with American-born children. And there isn’t a single one of them that I cannot have a conversation with in English. And I don’t see school papers coming home with a chinese translation either…. hmmmmmm

I suppose this just goes to show that there is power in numbers - the politicians pay attention to the numbers and pander accordingly. And I would never minimize any immigrants, past or present. But I think that the Mexican immigrants of today are better organized and have it easier to ‘not assimilate’ than past immigrants.

Left by Terr on August 28th, 2006 at 8:39 pm

Just to be clear, who are you comparing your grandfather to? Do you believe that there are Mexican immigrants who live here through their adult lives and never learn passable English? I think you’re mistaken.

Sure there is always a new immigrant who can’t speak English but there is no basis in your assumption that each individual isn’t learning English. A large number of the descendents of Latino immigrants I see seem to treat English as their primary language.

If the following is true today it seems likely that the pervasiveness of Slovak culture was even greater during the height of immigration near the turn of the century:
The city of Chicago had less than thirty thousand inhabitants when the first number of the “Slovan Amerikansky,” the first Czech weekly in this country, was issued in Racine, Wis., in 1860. The population of Chicago has increased more than a hundred fold since that time, and the Czechoslovak press in the United States now numbers seventy-one periodicals. Ten of these are issued daily, forty-two are weeklies or semiweeklies, and nineteen fort-nightlies or monthlies. Fifty are published in Czech and twenty-one in Slovak, though some print articles in both Slovak and Czech. The total does not include four periodicals published partly in Slovak and partly in Ruthenian or English. The Slovak press is concentrated in the East, with fourteen periodicals published in Pennsylvania alone, while the Czech press flourishes chiefly in the middle West. The Czechs have twenty-two periodicals in Illinois and sixteen in the States west of the Mississippi; the Slovaks, four in Illinois and none in the Transmississippi region.
Noisy Link.
Regarding bilingual education, I think the point that kids can be taught in English is probably right, especially at an early age. But I don’t know if it is best to teach math a 13 year old Spanish speaker exclusively in English. I guess it’s a matter of priorities- is it more important for the kid to learn math or English at a higher level?

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 7:32 am

Regarding bilingual education, I think the point that kids can be taught in English is probably right, especially at an early age. But I don’t know if it is best to teach math a 13 year old Spanish speaker exclusively in English. I guess it’s a matter of priorities- is it more important for the kid to learn math or English at a higher level?

Bull. The high school I went to had a lot of kids fresh off the boat — italian, czech, polish, greek. They were taught in english only and they caught up, assimilated, and did fine. When they finally banned bi-lingual education in California it was an immense success. It rarely gets reported on because the facts are contrary to liberal kneejerk theories that do nothing but create second class citizens.

Left by Anonymous on August 29th, 2006 at 8:58 am

They were taught in english only and they caught up, assimilated, and did fine.

So, you’ve done a study that compares the math scores of students taught with the aid of their native language v. the scores of students taught in a second language?

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 9:38 am

To put it another way, why do you think all of the kids in school learning from immersion were successful? Perhaps because if they didn’t understand anything they just dropped out of school and your memory.

Just to say, anecdotal evidence is fine, but not the full picture.

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 10:32 am

To put it another way, why do you think all of the kids in school learning from immersion were successful?

Yes.

Just to say, anecdotal evidence is fine, but not the full picture.

More accurate than dopes who make statements like this with nothing to back it up: It’s a pretty standard rule of thumb that . . .

Left by Anonymous on August 29th, 2006 at 11:12 am

Preston, I think it’s wonderful that I got you interested in Slovak culture. I also have a grandmother whose family came from Poland. Tell me about the hundreds of Polish periodicals out there. Maybe they carry the slovak and polish papers at my HEB and I just didn’t notice. I must have missed the papers coming home from the school district that were printed in English, Spanish, French, Slovak, Polish, German, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc…. . I’m sure those immigrants would appreciate the help.

Many Mexican immigrants are not learning english because they don’t have to! I taught a weekly religious ed class at my Catholic church for three years. I couldn’t communicate with at least half the parents because they didn’t speak english. None. I would have to get one of the spanish-speaking workers at the church to speak to them. Their kids spoke english. They were living in America long enough for the children to learn. But they didn’t speak any?

Now, that is a small church community. Multiply that by the thousands of children in our public schools. Is it fair to expect every single teacher in this state to speak Spanish? Or is it fair to expect every person using the school system to understand enough english to communicate with their children’s teachers?

If my ancestors had to deal with public employees, they had to know english. Or else they would have to bring along their own translator. There was no way a school district or police department was going to provide translation to Italians, Germans, Poles, Slovaks, Austrians, Lithuanians.. and more. They learned english. Okay. Enough about that because you obviously know better than I do about the melting pot of the Pennsylvania coal region at the beginning of the 20th century. Let’s talk about Texas, instead. I love the Mexican influence in this part of the country. I love the different cultures all over the United States. I lived in South Florida for two years and I love Cuban food and music and the lust for life of the Cuban people. But I don’t remember that everything that came home from the public school was translated into Spanish for the Cubans….

Every public service in this state must provide spanish-speaking workers. These employees are paid more money than those who don’t speak spanish. That’s fine - they have an extra skill, give them the money. But in the long run, the cost to the taxpayers is ridiculous.

There is no reason for Mexican immigrants to learn English. So why should they? And we are doing them no favor by not making them learn. It is a burden to society to have these large (and growing larger) communities of people who are not literate in the english language.

Do you have a problem with expecting people to be able to speak enough English in order to function in American society?

Do you think that we should spend the money to translate everything into other languages for all people (not just Spanish-speaking) who are living here and benefiting from government agencies?

Do you think that it is fair for a country to have one official language? I have friends from Canada, and the language split has come close to tearing the country apart. It may yet happen there. Is that what we want? For the entire southwest United States to become the Quebec of the United States?

It is hard to learn English - past, present or future immigrants will struggle. Do NOT even suggest that it is easier for some…. You do not know. It is EASY for Mexicans in this state to NOT learn English. They don’t have to.

Left by Terr on August 29th, 2006 at 11:17 am

There is no reason for Mexican immigrants to learn English.
Are you serious?

Do you have a problem with expecting people to be able to speak enough English in order to function in American society?
Does anything I’ve said imply that? My point is that many people: 1. Overestimate the degree of assimilation of their grandparents. and 2. Underestimate the degree of assimilation of recent immigrants.

As people with the initiative to leave their homes and look for a better life every immigrant is well aware of what it takes to earn more money. If you don’t speak English you work in the kitchen, if you do you can work the floor and earn tips or become a manager.

Do you think that we should spend the money to translate everything into other languages I think we should make a good faith effort to keep people’s lives from being ruined just because they didn’t fill out the right government form.

Do you think that it is fair for a country to have one official language? Sure. I’ve already stated my support for the enforcement of immigration laws. I would actually increase legal immigration because I believe it is good for our country (think Andrew Grove or Sergey Brinn) but I think we need to stop illegal immigration.

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 1:08 pm

o/t
What the hell is wrong with our government?

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 1:11 pm

More accurate than dopes who make statements like this with nothing to back it up: It’s a pretty standard rule of thumb that . . .

Have you met many 3rd generation Americans who can’t speak English?

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 1:14 pm

I think we’re talking about priorities here, including Preston’s o/t post.

Parents have a responsibility to educate their own children to a certain extent. We all have done it. We read to them, we teach them how to count, etc. Children are expected to be able to perform basic tasks before they even begin school. The least that should be expected of immigrants is that they do the same in the FIRST generation. That is, as adults they should enroll in English classes that are free all over this country. Even my little town of 5,000 has a community center with free English lessons. It’s called responsibility. It’s called assimilation. But, you have to get your ass out the door and do it! There is no excuse except in limited circumstances .. medical reasons, etc.

Regarding Preston’s o/t post, why should the military do ANY medical research on head injuries? There isn’t a head injury in the world that hasn’t been researched by independent medical organizations or the National Institutes of Health. Why should the Pentagon have its own research facilities and fund its own studies? Please give me a rational reason. I can understand money for treatment and care, but research? Once again, I think we’re talking about priorities here. Maybe someone wised up and realized they are unnecessarily duplicating work that is already being done. It wouldn’t be the first time that the government has needlessly thrown money away. Until we know the facts of why the pentagon request was less, I don’t think we can make any judgments.

Left by dianne on August 29th, 2006 at 2:43 pm

Strange interpretation Dianne. There is one off-hand line in the article that suggests the research arm of the center; most of the article discusses the treatment of injured veterans.

Additionally, looking at the website it seems to me that the DVBIC’s focus is on treating injured veterans. The research is the experimentation and documentation of this work. To me it makes sense for people working with patients with brain injuries to share information on what treatments work. I didn’t think that was a liberal concept…

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 2:58 pm

Dianne, regarding your thoughts about language class. I totally agree- of course everyone would be better off if they were better educated. But I think it’s odd how threatened people seem to be by whether or not an old lady can speak English or not.

Left by Preston on August 29th, 2006 at 3:04 pm

Preston, it’s not just the old ladies who cannot speak English. Anyone who has lived for a time in South Texas or in the larger urban areas of any state along the border can tell you this. I have a friend who is 2nd generation American, whose parents immigrated illegally from Mexico. Her parents do not speak a word of English and they have been here now for 30 years. 30 years, and not one word. The difference between the immigrants of today, particularly the Mexican immigrants, is that they do not have to assimilate any longer. It’s not necessary because it “violates their civil rights” and you’ll have 13 different rights groups jumping on your back over it. Bottom line is I know pretty darn well that were I to move to Mexico, I would be expected to communicate in their language, but the same expectation no longer exists here.

Left by Tori on August 31st, 2006 at 7:53 am