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	<title>Comments on: Democrats Knew About Foley Emails Since 2005</title>
	<atom:link href="http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/</link>
	<description>Sometimes the truth hurts</description>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kelley</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25998</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 02:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The true test of the &quot;success&quot; of the Iraqi War is to be seen in the number of Iraqis that have left and are still leaving the country. More than a million and counting, leaving the country bereft of competent doctors, professors, and soon, a middle class.  Add this to the numbers killed, and I think you have at least something like five per cent of the population that are either dead, or now living in other countries. One of the  countries with the greatest percentage of displaced Iraqi refugees-Assad&#039;s Syria. That tells you all you need to know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The true test of the &#8220;success&#8221; of the Iraqi War is to be seen in the number of Iraqis that have left and are still leaving the country. More than a million and counting, leaving the country bereft of competent doctors, professors, and soon, a middle class.  Add this to the numbers killed, and I think you have at least something like five per cent of the population that are either dead, or now living in other countries. One of the  countries with the greatest percentage of displaced Iraqi refugees-Assad&#8217;s Syria. That tells you all you need to know.</p>
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		<title>By: Preston</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25978</link>
		<dc:creator>Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/11/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25978</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Preston and Anon â€” Iâ€™m surprised that two guys as smart as you just accepted that ridiculous 665K number without question or skepticism.&lt;/em&gt;

Well, thanks for the complement but I thought I was clear that the number can&#039;t be known.  Still, the study is useful as a starting point- maybe the number is half that, maybe it is double.

Unless I misunderstand the study myself the thing that you and most conservatives seem to be unclear about is that the deaths are not necessarily &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_2.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;violent&lt;/a&gt;:  

&lt;em&gt;According to the survey results, Iraq&#039;s mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate &quot;excess deaths.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

So the state of the hospitals and  fact that we have not re-established the electrical network is as influential to these numbers as the roaming death squads and the &#039;collateral damage&#039; inherent in using the world&#039;s most powerful military.

In any case it seems terribly disingenuous for the right to question the methodology of this study while accepting it in other non-US-invasion arenas.  It looks pretty sound on the face of it:

&lt;em&gt;The interviewers asked for death certificates 87 percent of the time; when they did, more than 90 percent of households produced certificates.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Preston and Anon â€” Iâ€™m surprised that two guys as smart as you just accepted that ridiculous 665K number without question or skepticism.</em></p>
<p>Well, thanks for the complement but I thought I was clear that the number can&#8217;t be known.  Still, the study is useful as a starting point- maybe the number is half that, maybe it is double.</p>
<p>Unless I misunderstand the study myself the thing that you and most conservatives seem to be unclear about is that the deaths are not necessarily <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_2.html" rel="nofollow">violent</a>:  </p>
<p><em>According to the survey results, Iraq&#8217;s mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate &#8220;excess deaths.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>So the state of the hospitals and  fact that we have not re-established the electrical network is as influential to these numbers as the roaming death squads and the &#8216;collateral damage&#8217; inherent in using the world&#8217;s most powerful military.</p>
<p>In any case it seems terribly disingenuous for the right to question the methodology of this study while accepting it in other non-US-invasion arenas.  It looks pretty sound on the face of it:</p>
<p><em>The interviewers asked for death certificates 87 percent of the time; when they did, more than 90 percent of households produced certificates.</em></p>
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		<title>By: kw</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25975</link>
		<dc:creator>kw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;At least under the Saddam leadership, they had running water and food&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I almost choked on that one...  


Yah, that Saddam was a fab leader.  Thank goodness he did so many nobel things during his leadership.  I bet someone, somewhere has nominated him for the peace prize for all the rapes, tortures, mass murders, live-burials, slavery, human trafficking, etc..., he so generously gave his people.

Maybe they&#039;ll name a library after him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>At least under the Saddam leadership, they had running water and food</p></blockquote>
<p>I almost choked on that one&#8230;  </p>
<p>Yah, that Saddam was a fab leader.  Thank goodness he did so many nobel things during his leadership.  I bet someone, somewhere has nominated him for the peace prize for all the rapes, tortures, mass murders, live-burials, slavery, human trafficking, etc&#8230;, he so generously gave his people.</p>
<p>Maybe they&#8217;ll name a library after him.</p>
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		<title>By: Robbie</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25964</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/11/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25964</guid>
		<description>Preston and Anon --- I&#039;m surprised that two guys as smart as you just accepted that ridiculous 665K number without question or skepticism.

Consider all the links from &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://instapundit.com/archives/033162.php&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A NEW &lt;em&gt;LANCET&lt;/em&gt; STUDY ON IRAQI CASUALTIES:  I&#039;m skeptical, given their past &lt;a href=&quot;http://instapundit.com/archives/018775.php&quot;&gt;track record.&lt;/a&gt;  Meanwhile, &lt;a href=&quot;http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/547_becomes_654965/&quot;&gt;Tim Blair&lt;/a&gt; notes the paucity of actual data: &quot;Remember: Lancet came up with this via a survey that identified precisely 547 deaths (as reported by the New York Times).&quot; He also notes that it&#039;s a rather large claim by historical standards: &quot;It is a larger number than were killed in Germany during five years (and 955,044 tons) of WWII bombing.&quot; John Wixted &lt;a href=&quot;http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2006/10/about-that-new-study-in-lancet.html&quot;&gt;comments&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;em&gt;The Lancet, of course, is the same journal that published a similarly flawed study on the eve of the last presidential election in a transparent attempt to influence the outcome (to no avail, fortunately). That study claimed that more than 100,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the invasion.&lt;/em&gt;

(Compare that claim with &lt;a href=&quot;http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2005/05/civilian_deaths.html&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; UN study.)  He notes that &lt;em&gt;The Lancet&lt;/em&gt; also claimed that 567,000 Iraqis died as a result of sanctions before the war.  Omar of Iraq the Model is &lt;a href=&quot;http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/11/jaccuse_iraq_the_model_respond.php&quot;&gt;not pleased,&lt;/a&gt; and one of his commenters wonders where all the bodies are.  And &lt;a href=&quot;http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/10/bush_wrong_to_d.html&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Chicago Tribune&lt;/em&gt; blogger Frank James&lt;/a&gt; says that people are right to be skeptical.

UPDATE:  MedPundit Sydney Smith notes that the study is getting a &lt;a href=&quot;http://medpundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/lancet-strikes-again-i-admit-this.html&quot;&gt;skeptical reception from statisticians.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If you only read one thing about the fake study, read &lt;a href=&quot;http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/11/jaccuse_iraq_the_model_respond.php&quot;&gt;the piece from Omar Fadil&lt;/a&gt; --- who &lt;em&gt;lives &lt;/em&gt;in Iraq. This quote from Omar pretty well sums up my thoughts on those asinine numbers you are referring to:
&lt;blockquote&gt;To me their motives are clear, all they want is to prove that our struggle for freedom was the wrong thing to do. And they shamelessly use lies to do thisâ€¦when they did not find the death they wanted to see on the ground, they faked it on paper! They disgust meâ€¦&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preston and Anon &#8212; I&#8217;m surprised that two guys as smart as you just accepted that ridiculous 665K number without question or skepticism.</p>
<p>Consider all the links from <a rel="nofollow" href="http://instapundit.com/archives/033162.php">this post</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>A NEW <em>LANCET</em> STUDY ON IRAQI CASUALTIES:  I&#8217;m skeptical, given their past <a href="http://instapundit.com/archives/018775.php">track record.</a>  Meanwhile, <a href="http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/547_becomes_654965/">Tim Blair</a> notes the paucity of actual data: &#8220;Remember: Lancet came up with this via a survey that identified precisely 547 deaths (as reported by the New York Times).&#8221; He also notes that it&#8217;s a rather large claim by historical standards: &#8220;It is a larger number than were killed in Germany during five years (and 955,044 tons) of WWII bombing.&#8221; John Wixted <a href="http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2006/10/about-that-new-study-in-lancet.html">comments</a>:</p>
<p><em>The Lancet, of course, is the same journal that published a similarly flawed study on the eve of the last presidential election in a transparent attempt to influence the outcome (to no avail, fortunately). That study claimed that more than 100,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the invasion.</em></p>
<p>(Compare that claim with <a href="http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2005/05/civilian_deaths.html">this</a> UN study.)  He notes that <em>The Lancet</em> also claimed that 567,000 Iraqis died as a result of sanctions before the war.  Omar of Iraq the Model is <a href="http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/11/jaccuse_iraq_the_model_respond.php">not pleased,</a> and one of his commenters wonders where all the bodies are.  And <a href="http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/10/bush_wrong_to_d.html"><em>Chicago Tribune</em> blogger Frank James</a> says that people are right to be skeptical.</p>
<p>UPDATE:  MedPundit Sydney Smith notes that the study is getting a <a href="http://medpundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/lancet-strikes-again-i-admit-this.html">skeptical reception from statisticians.</a></p></blockquote>
<p>If you only read one thing about the fake study, read <a href="http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/11/jaccuse_iraq_the_model_respond.php">the piece from Omar Fadil</a> &#8212; who <em>lives </em>in Iraq. This quote from Omar pretty well sums up my thoughts on those asinine numbers you are referring to:</p>
<blockquote><p>To me their motives are clear, all they want is to prove that our struggle for freedom was the wrong thing to do. And they shamelessly use lies to do thisâ€¦when they did not find the death they wanted to see on the ground, they faked it on paper! They disgust meâ€¦</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Preston</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25962</link>
		<dc:creator>Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/11/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25962</guid>
		<description>I agree with your general point (though the specific number of Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion can&#039;t be known.)  

It brings to mind: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38614&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dead Iraqi Would Have Loved Democracy&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your general point (though the specific number of Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion can&#8217;t be known.)  </p>
<p>It brings to mind: <a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38614" rel="nofollow">Dead Iraqi Would Have Loved Democracy</a></p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25961</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 20:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My point is that what we did made things worse for the Iraqi people in the long run. At least under the Saddam leadership, they had running water and food. We underestimated the hatred between the people living there. 600,000 in 3 years. i wonder how many more there will die in the next 4 years, since that seems to be the earliest that the US might be able to pull out of Iraq, if everything goes well. Then after that, its on to N. Korea, maybe Iran.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is that what we did made things worse for the Iraqi people in the long run. At least under the Saddam leadership, they had running water and food. We underestimated the hatred between the people living there. 600,000 in 3 years. i wonder how many more there will die in the next 4 years, since that seems to be the earliest that the US might be able to pull out of Iraq, if everything goes well. Then after that, its on to N. Korea, maybe Iran.</p>
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		<title>By: Preston</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25950</link>
		<dc:creator>Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/11/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25950</guid>
		<description>Anon-
Just to be clear the study does not attribute these deaths entirely to the US military but to the conditions resulting from the invasion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon-<br />
Just to be clear the study does not attribute these deaths entirely to the US military but to the conditions resulting from the invasion.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25934</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is totally off the subject, but looks like the US invasion has killed more innocent lives than during the Saddam era. What a way to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/index.html&quot;&gt;fight&lt;/a&gt; the war on terror.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is totally off the subject, but looks like the US invasion has killed more innocent lives than during the Saddam era. What a way to <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/index.html">fight</a> the war on terror.</p>
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		<title>By: Preston</title>
		<link>http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25929</link>
		<dc:creator>Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbangrounds.com/2006/10/11/dems-knew-about-foley-scandal/#comment-25929</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Again, more confirmation from WaPo that (a) a Democrat operative was the source of the less salacious emails and (b) this story was shopped from November 2005 to August 2006&lt;/em&gt;

AND NOBODY WOULD PRINT IT!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Again, more confirmation from WaPo that (a) a Democrat operative was the source of the less salacious emails and (b) this story was shopped from November 2005 to August 2006</em></p>
<p>AND NOBODY WOULD PRINT IT!</p>
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