Roger Simon seems to be a fan of Danny Glover.
But that doesn’t stop him from laying into Mr. Glover for taking millions of dollars from Hugo Chavez to make movies:
What is it that makes people able to overlook so much? To preserve their leftist ideals people like Glover are able to ignore the likes of Castro murdering the (often very liberal) opposition, jailing artists and homosexuals and so forth. They can turn the other way as Chavez embraces Holocaust denier Ahmadinejad or closes television stations and arrests hundreds of students protesting for free speech, as he did this week. (At least he didn’t throw them through the dormitory windows, as his friends in Iran did in 1999 when the “reformer” Khatami was in power.)
Read the whole thing.
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It’s clearly not simply a liberal thing (think of George Bush flirting with Putin 5 years ago) but it is certainly disappointing.
I have at least one liberal friend (from Venezuela originally) who supports Chavez because of his strong support for and from the working class. If I mention that I’ve heard that it has been reported that he has armed his supporters she deflected the question by mentioning that the right wing in America is heavily armed too!?!
I think that it’s simply human nature to put people into good guy or bad guy catagories (think of KMA’s rejection of all of my arguments on education despite our apparent agreement). Unfortunately this tendancy misses the nuances of actual human behavior. I wish that Chavez could be recognized for his forthright concern for the poor without that support implying a blank check for autocracy.
(To be fair, it’s worth noting that some of his more autocratic gestures have been provoked by actions that would be considered outrageous in this country- such as the television support of the illegal coup against him then his subsequent attacks on the media)
Because your arguments were disproved, dumbass.
READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES FROM THE BIBLE AS IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON THE WAR AGAINST TERROR/ISLAM and the claim of Israel that god gave them the land. If the child is an infant than the Judeo-Christian version becomes null and void and we are wasting our time and resources i.e. we could save trillions of dollars and create a more peaceful world rather than fighting against Islam the religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).
[The rest of this extremely long (and cut 'n pasted) comment has been deleted by Robbie]
Chavez’ programs have failed to date, so what did he do? He took over oil and he’s raising the prices. Who pays? Us Want to help them more? Drive up the price of oil more and more. Who will pay? We will. Want to end poverty in Venezuela? Get out your wallet and don’t whine when the price drives us into poverty.
KMA-
Remind me what substantive policy differences we have on education?
Dianne-
A. What policies failed?
B. Do you really think he has the ability to set global petroleum prices?
C. It’s sort of a bad joke to suggest US poverty is equivilent to South American poverty.
ahmedinajad-
What the hell is that? Was I supposed to read that?
Preston stop whining already.
Preston – I was talking about Chavez’ poverty programs. So far, the consensus seems to be that he hasn’t improved much of anything. I know there’s a debate as to why (strikes, etc) but still, he’s not the great savior as he promised.
And, of course he has control over oil prices..in top 5 of world suppliers.
Finally, call it a bad joke, I really don’t care.
pres,
we’ve all told you that educating poor people via your method is not feasible nor does it address the real underlying issues. this question is probably better in the “let are kids walk” discussion from last week.
sorry for speaking for you kma but preston often hears/sees things 20 times and it still doesn’t sink in. i thought rehearing an old voice may help.
as for question a) posed to dianne, i don’t have enough time to answer; maybe she can write that book. i have a more applicable question with regard to chavez? which of his programs have been successful?
b) diane never claimed chavez can set the global petroleum prices; she suggested that chavez and his dictatorship have the ability to drastically impact the prices americans pay, which is true.
c) isn’t a question but in response: if venezualen poverty is such a serious issue for you, then you should do something about it. i think diane is not attempting to draw comparisons between our social issues and south americas. she’s pointing out that it’s foolish to support efforts of foreign regimes that will negatively impact our national economy.
for the first time ever i do agree with you when reading ahmedinajad:
wtf?
sorry to interject myself on this one; i’m just in need of some debate.
KMA-
Using an insult rather than answering a direct question completely makes the point I had in my first comment here.
Thanks.
o/t
we’ve all told you that educating poor people via your method is not feasible
Adam, you are clear that I was referring to a program that exists and has been increasing the test scores of poor children?
This isn’t theoretical. You simply don’t want to do it.
Using an insult rather than answering a direct question completely makes the point I had in my first comment here. Thanks.
And you proved mine. The issue had been discussed ad nauseum in the thread where it is not off topic. You were proven wrong. Stop your whining.
Back in the fray. Adam read my mind. Thanks for coherently answering for me, Adam.
Curious now about the education comment. Guess I must have missed what program people are talking about for educating poor children. ..from a previous discussion? The only reason I bring this up is Adam recently informed us he taught at probably one of the best high schools in the country with what appears to be a sizable minority population.
I came from a very poor family; however, we had a good family structure and we were encouraged to excel. My mother and father only had eighth grade educations, yet were very proficient in English. When they couldn’t help us with more advanced science and mathematics, they found relatives who could. We didn’t leave the house till our homework was done. Also, our teachers took no shit and our parents backed up the teachers. Granted that was eons ago, but those principles have gone by the wayside.
Just my 2 cents. Out to finish mowing the yard.
dianne is correct in her assertion that bpi (bpi.edu) is one of the nations most impressive public inner city schools. unfortunatly the historic reputation is not entirely accurate when assessing the current state of the school. back in the 80′s, the academic requirments began being substantially reduced. currently a passing grade is 60%, there is no limit to the time a child has to submit documentation for excused absences, & the # of children graduating with college prepatory diplomas versus regular hs diplomas is significantly less than previous generations. the population is approximately 80% black, roughly 3/4 qualify for free or reduced lunch.
the kipp (knowledge is power program) that preston reffered to does exist and has been increasing the test scores of mostly poor (qualify for free lunch) children? point to preston.
what pres doesn’t mention is that the reason that they succeed is because they immediately seperate those who are invested in their education from those who don’t give a fuck. i would speculate that if a parent &/or their child intend to participate for the 3 extra hours of school daily, the required saturday academics, & the additional class time in the summer in order to attend one of the kipp schools, then these populations are not composed of the students who drag down the average test scores of black america. saying a child is eligible for reduced lunch, doesn’t mean their educationally disadvantaged. kipp schools only take kids/families that want to learn and prove it via attendance. the problem in education is with those who don’t.
preston seems to believe that any child who qualifies for free lunch is automatically “educationally disadvantaged”. he also contends that this point of view is not different from kma’s. i feel that truly”educationally disadvantaged” kids are those of families who don’t stress the importance of education to their young or view academia as part of a conspiring white agenda. those that meet either of these criteria, i believe, are those with the poorest test scores. unfortunately preston’s theory will not help these kids. readers take note; preston will not address these facts because they do not support his socialist idea of what is fair.
seriously preston, if i thought it was the answer i would endorse the expansion of these programs. frankly, not enough kids or families want their children educated in such a time consuming structure. did you call any one of the 50 national kipp schools and ask them how many students seek admission versus how many eligible students exist? the answer is highly indicative of the mentality of the folks who you want to spend all of this money on.
preston seems to believe that any child who qualifies for free lunch is automatically “educationally disadvantagedâ€. he also contends that this point of view is not different from kma’s.
Which is proof that preston is delusional.
KMA-
It’s fine if you think so but I’m still waiting for you to say what your objection to anything I’ve said is. Or don’t.
Adam:
frankly, not enough kids or families want their children educated in such a time consuming structure
Says who? KIPP schools turn away students.
I have never made the claim that this program could be applied to every student- you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. I have only said that it should be available to students who want it.
i would speculate that if a parent &/or their child intend to participate for the 3 extra hours of school daily, the required saturday academics, & the additional class time in the summer in order to attend one of the kipp schools, then these populations are not composed of the students who drag down the average test scores of black america.
You would speculate wrongly. If you had bothered to read the Paul Tough description of the schools he goes into detail about how KIPP goes out of their way to weed out the strivers and children of ambitious parents. They take students who are not succeeding and make them successful.
Honestly, this conversation would have been over a long time ago if you had simply read the link. Until you do- to be blunt- you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Look, if we had the world’s greatest education system and it was only poor kids who couldn’t hack it your laissez faire attitude might have some legs to stand on. But as it is our children score behind countries like S. Korea, Italy, Germany, and Japan. Isn’t it obvious that these are the countries that the next generation of engineers are coming from? If we allow them all to immigrate here we might maintain our technological superiority- if not our children will be working for the American branches of companies from these countries.
Which, I conclude, must be fine with you.
KMA- It’s fine if you think so but I’m still waiting for you to say what your objection to anything I’ve said is. Or don’t
My objection, which I have made repeatedly, is your obnoxious tactic of claiming I made statements that I never made. Knock that shit off.
Oh what the hell, I’ll do your research for you:
From Houston:
“the current KIPP waiting list in Houston is 2,500 students long. ”
And from the South Bronx:
“We’re not getting above-average kids,” Levin said. “People are looking for ways out of the regular public school. We have several hundred on the waiting list — and we don’t advertise.”
I conceded very early on that there is the possibility of selection bias in KIPP’s record- despite their attempts to reach out to underacheiving students. But what, precisely, is your argument for denying a way out of the ghetto for a child willing to work hard enough to earn it?
KMA-
Uh, that’s not really a policy disagreement but- whatever:
You’re right, we disagree very bitterly.
Thanks for updating me on an old “discussion”.
All I have to say is it is very sad that the children have to pay for the lifestyle of their parents and that we as a society don’t see the forest for the trees. I don’t believe for one minute that race is a factor. It boils down to culture and family. Yes, money plays a role. It always does. It’s harder to rise above poverty. Can’t get into the Ivy League schools so don’t even dream about it. That hasn’t changed in 40 years. But, and here’s the big but, you don’t have to go to Harvard to succeed in life. You don’t even have to go to college although you do need to know how to read and write and be able to make basic computations. And, you have to be raised to succeed and work hard at whatever you do. RAISED, not coddled, not ignored, not told you can’t do it, not raised to give a damn about showing up for class or work, not raised to be allowed out all hours of the day and night, not respecting teachers or your fellow man. There is not enough money that can be thrown at a person to overcome the failure of society and parents to raise children in an environment in which they thrive.
“KIPP schools turn away students.”
you think? i know, there are lots of poor families out there that would love to take advantage of the free extra child care. so what your saying is that, even though most eligible students never apply, kipp cannot even find enough teachers willing to work 15 hour days 10 months of the year to accomodate those with an interest now. agreed. and you want to replicate this system huh?
“I have never made the claim that this program could be applied to every student- you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.”
so you at least can admit that this program that i say certainly won’t work on a national level, may not work? this would be dependant initially on the desire of the students and the persistence of their families, right?
“I have only said that it should be available to students who want it.”
agreed; i just hope your not to disappointed when you find out that most of those you wish to help, won’t accept it. those that do will do so half-heartedly, skeptically attempt to apply it, and then regress when that help isn’t present the majority of their lives. even in the best case scenarios, replicating these schools won’t begin to scratch the surface of the national education comparisons that seem to concern you so.
“If you had bothered to read the Paul Tough description of the schools he goes into detail about how KIPP goes out of their way to weed out the strivers and children of ambitious parents”
this is simply untrue. though there is mention of trying to take some of the poorest children from the worst neighborhoods. there may be 2 total sentences on the topic in the multi page article but they hardly represent great “detail”, much less address the facts. those being, the most disadvantaged children are so disadvantaged that they never apply and kipp can’t accept those who never apply, much less weed them from the overachievers .
good try on assuming that i never read this article. i’ve been to multiple kipp schools, spoken with their staff, explored their website extensively, and probably read this article before you did. i feel like i’m explaining this to a child that needs a kipp school.
“They take students who are not succeeding and make them successful.” really, they only spend 30-60 % more time in an academic setting than their public school counterparts. so the taxpayer should pay to replicate this on a national level huh? can i get a five day forcast over in fantasyland?
“Honestly, this conversation would have been over a long time ago if you had simply read the link. Until you do- to be blunt- you really don’t know what you’re talking about.”
so my carreer of working with children in residential and academic settings in multiple urban areas doesn’t impress you. perhaps your child care/education credentials would enlighten the rest of us as to why your so informed about the topic.
“Oh what the hell, I’ll do your research for you:”
i bet you’ld like that but no thanks. i’ll be fine without your distorted perspectives.
“the current KIPP waiting list in Houston is 2,500 students long. â€
you know there’s over 200,000 kids in that city? who pays the already underpaid teachers who will have to work all of that overtime? oh i forgot we let the bush tax cuts expire; that won’t effect the economy at all. how many of the 2500 kids are illegal aliens or born of illegal parents? oh, fuck it, who cares? let’s pay for all of em anyway. better yet, let’s just pass legislation that permanently resigns the u s taxpayer to covering education costs for the whole world. then anyone that feels their current situation is inadequate can just come here and not have to worry about the cost of anything. according to kipp, ““We’re not getting above-average kids,…People are looking for ways out of the regular public school. We have several hundred on the waiting list — and we don’t advertise.†preston’s right everyone, we can educate the whole world regardless of background and all we have to do is pay for it. yup, that’s it!
“what, precisely, is your argument for denying a way out of the ghetto for a child willing to work hard enough to earn it?”
i’ve never argued for denying a way out of the ghetto for a child willing to work hard enough to earn it and i challenge you to recall a time where i did. what, precisely is your argument for ignoring the impact of those who kipp will not or cannot help? do you blatantly ignore the realities of the ghetto, choose to maintain a very naive optimism about the state of mind there, or are you just endorsing eutopian ideas from the ivory tower? just curious!
Hop on over to LaShawn Barber’s Corner this morning and read the article she wrote titled, “Urban Prep“.
{EDITORS NOTE: Dianne, thanks for the tip. I’ve added a hyperlink to the article you recommended. Typical of Barber’s writing, it’s a well done and thoughtful piece, with lots of good supporting links and references).
How am I supposed to debate a moving target when you say:
“I have only said that it should be available to students who want it.†agreed; i just hope your not to disappointed when you find out that most of those you wish to help, won’t
after so many complaints about the cost?
Do you or do you not support the expansion of intensive education programs for poor children who want it?
this would be dependant initially on the desire of the students and the persistence of their families, right?
Of course, I have never disputed that. The point- once again- is to provide a path to success for any child (and family, actually) willing to work hard enough to succeed.
i’ve been to multiple kipp schools, spoken with their staff, explored their website extensively, and probably read this article before you did.
Sorry, no dice: I get Saturday delivery of the Sunday New York Times.
what, precisely is your argument for ignoring the impact of those who kipp will not or cannot help?
This was always a discussion on education- we can talk about poverty in general some other time if you’re so inclined.
i’ve never argued for denying a way out of the ghetto for a child willing to work hard enough to earn it and i challenge you to recall a time where i did.
Your opposition to the expansion of a proven education system for the poor is essentially denying them a ‘way out of the ghetto’. On paper, of course, it is possible for any individual student to succeed at a conventional school but empirical evidence suggests it is a painfully long shot.
This is pretty much beaten to death but let me summarize:
1. You seem to believe that KIPP schools results are inflated by the selection bias that leads only driven students to enroll.
I have conceded that this occurs to a degree yet the results of of KIPP schools in raising the test scores of it’s students is impressive and should be replicated.
2. You don’t believe it is worthwhile spending extra money on education because of #1 and the unfair (my word) distribution of education money on the poor required to even the playing field.
I disagree adamantly.
“How am I supposed to debate”
attend a kipp school; maybe they’ll teach you!
““I have only said that it should be available to students who want it.†agreed; i just hope your not to disappointed when you find out that most of those you wish to help, won’t
after so many complaints about the cost? ”
how thoughtful; pressy is standing up for the feelings of all the poor victims. you got it genius; that’s my strategy. i complain enough about the costs of your handouts and those who would have taken them will feel so bad for not being able to pay for all the extra help they require, that they just won’t take it. i would almost feel ok about laughing at you, if i didn’t think you were serious in your paranoid assertions.
“Do you or do you not support the expansion of intensive education programs for poor children who want it?”
sure but poor children “who want help” are not those that create education gaps. how many different ways do i need to come up with to say it before you address this?
” The point- once again- is to provide a path to success for any child (and family, actually) willing to work hard enough to succeed.”
“Are you proposing to give them new parents?”
“i’ve been to multiple kipp schools, spoken with their staff, explored their website extensively, and probably read this article before you did.
Sorry, no dice: I get Saturday delivery of the Sunday New York Times.”
i think you may have missed the point there. i have seen on multiple occasions what you have only read about before endorsing. but since your so intent on playing ^i read it first^, please note the key word, probably, dork!
“what, precisely is your argument for ignoring the impact of those who kipp will not or cannot help?
This was always a discussion on education- we can talk about poverty in general some other time if you’re so inclined.”
if you think we weren’t talking about poverty and it’s impact on education, then what were we discussing?
“Your opposition to the expansion of a proven education system for the poor is essentially denying them a ‘way out of the ghetto’.”
i don’t oppose trial expansion of programs that appear to work, but interesting use of the word “essentially”. and even if i did oppose this expansion across the board, i would be denying your victims nothing. you see pressy noone needs a “way out of the ghetto”; they just leave. if one doesn’t like where they live, they should move. if low income limits these options, temporary sacrafice is a great way to build character while creating options. this is what kipp schools are trying to teach for 15 hrs per day. dam, redundancy is your thing, huh?
“This is pretty much beaten to death”
agreed and your inability to hear things one time and have them sink in killed it!
” You seem to believe that KIPP schools results are inflated by the selection bias that leads only driven students to enroll.”
personally, i have done little to understand the results; at a glance the progress looks spectacular! i’m less concerned about the inflation of results than i am with the seemingly-permanent underclass of people who will continue to drag down test scores post the expansion of these schools. yeah, the people that you address with: “you can lead a horse to water…” how will you remedy the money you waste trying to educate people who don’t want your help? there’s your summary, since simplicity seems to be what your seeking.
“You don’t believe it is worthwhile spending extra money on education because of #1 and the unfair (my word) distribution of education money on the poor required to even the playing field.”
again, you cannot seem to understand what i say so again i’m forced to correct your misinterpretations. spending money on education is fine. you are correct in that what you propose is an “unfair distribution of education money on the poor”. it would not only be unfair for “#1″ but for every american taxpayer. i submit to you that the playing field has been so leveled that it is being tilted in the opposite direction, and you are proposing that’s ok!
you think? i know, there are lots of poor families out there that would love to take advantage of the free extra child care.
Adam-
You are aware that the notion of KIPP-as-daycare-handout essentially contradicts your notion that only the highest acheiving families apply to KIPP schools?
In any case, your combination of indignant outrage at claims I’ve never made coupled with a tourette’s-like propensity for insults suggests you’re ready for the blogophere major leagues. Good job, kid, your call-up to LGF should be any day now!
preston,
“You are aware that the notion of KIPP-as-daycare-handout essentially contradicts your notion that only the highest acheiving families apply to KIPP schools?”
there’s that word “essentially” again. you seem to define it as: doesn’t exactly but i want to make a point so it. what you’re saying is that those who want to attend kipp schools wouldn’t abuse a free child care system. i say again, your sorely mistaken and again your mistake could cost taxpayers lots of money.
more importantly, this poor spin job is indicative of why our arguments go in circles. you pick a little quibble and then try and suggest and imply by distorting my statements. the technique is transparent.
as for your stated contradiction, wrong! i do suggest the notion of KIPP-as-daycare-handout , but i’ve never suggested anything close to the”notion that only the highest acheiving families apply to KIPP schools”. the highest achieving families don’t need kipp schools. they thrive in everyday schools from 8:30 -2:30 with unionized teachers who aren’t required to do overtime, and they still manage to go to college.
engaging in discourse with someone who has no elasticity can sometimes feel like beating your own head against a wall. this thread is a perfect example. i address point by point, the uninformed endorsements and lack of substantial thought given to them. i’m responded to with misinterpretations (seemingly intentionally spun), quibbles, accusations of “indignation” and “outrage”, and having a “propensity toward insults”. well the last one, i’ll admit is a bit true. that said, please step forward if this doesn’t seem dorky to you:
“Sorry, no dice: I get Saturday delivery of the Sunday New York Times.”
i promise never to hurt anyones feelings again; please robbie, don’t call the sensitivity police on me. i think “dork” is a felony.
apologies, i’m off topic. the fact is that i present real issues and substance when discussing or arguing a point of view. when responding to things i disagree with, i ask real questions about real issues that the uninformed won’t, don’t, & /or can’t answer. just from this thread alone:
1 defending hugo is fine; please point to his successes (ignored)
2you quickly concede a selection bias and go right back to the cause of championing for the programs. why? (ignored)
3clearly define who is “educationally disadvantagedâ€; which students can kipp help? (instead more double talk “I have never made the claim that this program could be applied to every student” while “I was referring to a program that exists and has been increasing the test scores of poor children.”)
4 responses to the poors ability to abuse kipp for free childcare suggest that it isn’t possible if the selection bias does occur. i didn’t realize these things were mutually exclusive. please tell us how you know, oh ghetto genie! (instead of addressing the point, it’s coupled with another issue, distorted, and ignored)
5if most “poor” students could be helped, then why don’t they apply?
(instead of addressing the relatively low proportion of eligible students seeking admission, you tell us that the schools have waiting lists in a blatant attempt to mislead/deflect)
6please elaborate on where to find teachers willing to work all of this overtime. (ignored except for admitting a propensity toward quick burnouts and suggestions of ending the bush tax cuts being able to sustain any/everything)
7 is it possible that the program may not work on a national level? (ignored)
8after claims that “i don’t know what i’m talking about”, i explain that my career has been spent working with the very children we have been discussing. what qualifies you to speak on the subject? (ignored)
9please speak to the # of illegal alien children &/or citizens born of illegals that you are proposing we taxpayers pay to educate. (ignored) why would we stop there; isn’t it the morally correct thing to do to educate the whole world? (ignored)
10 what about those who kipp cannot or will not help? (skirted the issue w/ “we can talk about poverty in general some other time”)
11do you blatantly ignore the realities of the ghetto, choose to maintain a very naive optimism about the state of mind there, or are you just endorsing utopian ideas from the ivory tower? (ignored) **I could see how one may not take such a question seriously but I assure you it is very real and justified.
preston,
the fact is kma had you pegged exactly. you argue with your heart about things that appear to be good, but you don’t understand the realities of how people live in the areas you’re discussing. if you did, you would see your being naive. when people bring up real issues, you twist arguments, question their motivations, misquote, misunderstand, accuse, assume and cannot rationalize answers to talking points. At best, you throw up some flimsy straw man defense and then go back to your mindless babble. the reason i beat your ass in debates consistently is beacause i practice on poor students from the ghetto who argue just like you but probably don’t tend to grasp grammar quite so well.
Adam,
I hope you’re aware that we very likely look literaly insane to anyone reading this. As much as I’m tempted to refute your issues point by point (particularly, the bit about the Saturday Times- learn to take a joke, dude, and respect the smiley!) the whole exercise is clearly a waste of time for both of us.
I’ve been trying to decide if you are debating in good faith given your repeated misportrayals of my point. But since this topic really has no particular relevance to current events I’ll trust that are sincere even when you assume that I am making points I haven’t made rather than simply asking for a clarification from me. Perhaps, it’s just that, as you’ve alluded to, you’re just a young guy and you like to spoil for a fight. In either case, it’s not like this has been particularly productive.
So, for the last time, here goes:
I believe that some- perhaps not all- poor students would be better served by more time in school in addition to the right curriculum. You agree that this has worked: the kipp (knowledge is power program) that preston reffered to does exist and has been increasing the test scores of mostly poor (qualify for free lunch) children?
If the programs work for, say, 15,000 children in 40 cities, there are surely enough eager students available to expand that to, say, 100,000 children in 200 cities. Would it cost money? Yes. Would they maintain their success? There’s no reason to think why not.
Could the programs be expanded to 200,000 children? I don’t know- we would have to try to find out that answer. Yet you found it entertaining to assume that I was arguing that in any case.
Could the programs be expanded to every student? I don’t know- other countries spend much more time in the classroom than our students but maybe there are some kids that can’t be reached. Not that you bothered to ask.
You questioned my desire to spend extra money on educating the poor. Yet your apparent approval of the 50 existing schools in 40 cities successfully educating the poor leads me to wonder why you would draw the line at 50 schools and not at, say, 100 or 1000 new schools to educate the poor in every American city. Perhaps at some point we reach diminishing returns- but I’m puzzled by a lack of curiousity about where that point is.
Maybe this will clarify things for you. If not, maybe you’d just ask for clarification. If not, I’ll probably find something more interesting to do.
ps.
Maybe it would interest you that actually I’m not really a Hugo supporter. I thought that would have been clear by my anecdote about a conversation with an actual Venezuelan Hugo supporter.
You would similarly find that in several other of your ‘questions’ you are asking me to defend ‘positions’ that I oppose. Maybe I’ll let you re-read our conversations to let you guess which ones.
“I hope you’re aware that we very likely look literaly insane to anyone reading this… the whole exercise is clearly a waste of time for both of us”
i post for me; my time is spent how i like.
” As much as I’m tempted to refute your issues point by point”….i can’t!
(particularly, the bit about the Saturday Times- learn to take a joke, dude, and respect the smiley!)
sorry cool guy; i must need a refresher in laughing at shit that aint funny as well as internet etiquette.
“asking for a clarification from me”
i asked 11 different times in this thread alone and then relisted the questions; you’ve ignored, danced around, and deflected all of them.
” Could the programs be expanded to 200,000 children? I don’t know- we would have to try to find out that answer. Yet you found it entertaining to assume that I was arguing that in any case.”
my apologies; i did assume that you were endorsing this as a long term solution to fixing the u s education crisis. i was seeking no entertainment; i sincerely believed that.
“Yet your apparent approval of the 50 existing schools in 40 cities successfully educating the poor leads me to wonder why you would draw the line at 50 schools and not at, say, 100 or 1000 new schools to educate the poor in every American city. ”
first, trial programs are needed. if it works great, replicate. i suspect that it’s tough enough to maitain the success of the 50 current schools. next, the more we expand this effort the less it is a sampling, while more becoming a social institution. historically society has been thanked for such programs with ungreatfulness, contempt, accusations of racism, and even requests/demands for reparations. additionally, i submit that education in most american communities is just fine.
on the surface these programs are at very least intriguing. that said, there’s a much bigger picture and it isn’t pretty. in my short years i have been witness to the culture of laziness, dependability, and entitlement that social programs just like these have created. for example, let’s use “teach for america”; it could be said that this program spawned kipp. at first glance this is a noble endeavor attempting to address a serious issue but are you aware that the fine teachers of this program, who work long hours in the toughest neighborhoods for sub standard wages and no healthcare are encouraged to collect food stamps (not the kids they teach, the teachers themselves)? most are ambitious, hard working, genuine recent college grads but agree to these working conditions only to gain experience, yet have to risk their physical well being to do so. isn’t a situation like this even more so the perfect irony? if the teachers are dependant on taxpayer assistance, what does that say to the kids? more importantly what messeages does this convey to the rest of society? from where i sit, it appears that “teach for america” says:
-kids need the best teachers but the best teachers aren’t worth shit
-they’re worth so little that we could care less if they have access to medicine
-we don’t even need to pay them enough to eat because there are social programs that will do that
talk about burnout; how long do you think it will take for these folks to decide on a different career path?
this is only one example that illustrates a culture of need as opposed to a culture of drive but the point is obvious. i use this example because the mentality i’m describing isn’t exclusive to the poor; it’s frequently found in organizational levels of many left leaning systems.
in my opinion the government is to protect the people. unfortunately a great many folks seem to think that it is intended to clothe them, house them, feed them, spend endless amounts on educating them &/or give money to them after natural disasters. i strongly disagree with these folks.
back to your talking points or lack thereof.
“Could the programs be expanded to every student? I don’t know- other countries spend much more time in the classroom than our students but maybe there are some kids that can’t be reached. Not that you bothered to ask.”
what didn’t i ask? what are you talking about? please enlighten me because your infinate wisdom and all of that experience has been so beneficial up until now.
“I’m puzzled by a lack of curiousity about where that point is.”
don’t be, i’m curious too. i’m just not eager like you seem to be.
“Maybe this will clarify things for you. If not, maybe you’d just ask for clarification.”
again?
“Maybe it would interest you that actually I’m not really a Hugo supporter.”
not particularlybut you could have fooled me; you asked dianne which of his policies failed and i suggested that it may be easier for you to tell us which haven’t.
“You would similarly find that in several other of your ‘questions’ you are asking me to defend ‘positions’ that I oppose. Maybe I’ll let you re-read our conversations to let you guess which ones.”
no thanks; repetition seems to be your thing. how’s that working out for you ?