The Democrats have been comparing Iraq to Vietnam from almost the time this war started. And now that they’re calling for the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq — just like we cut-and-ran from Vietnam — they are trying desperately to continue the comparison to Vietnam.
So desperate are they to convince the American people that Iraq is “just like Vietnam”, that they are willing to overlook millions of deaths in order to rewrite history to fit their analogy.
Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) said during a C-SPAN appearance that “fears of a bloodbath” after the US withdrawal from Vietnam “never materialized”. Lurch actually claimed that the stories of a bloodbath after the US pulled out are a myth.
As Captain Ed points out, “That’s breathtaking idiocy.”
Don’t believe Kerry said it, or that it was taken out of content? Go watch the video for yourself.
The problem with what Kerry said is that it isn’t true. He lied.
According to the Orange County Register, at least 165,000 people perished in those reeducation camps. And countless more were executed who never even made it to the camps. And another 2 million people in Cambodia were killed during the Khmer Rouge genocide.
I’m not sure what John Kerry considers to be a bloodbath, but in my book 2 million+ people beging killed once we pulled out of Vietnam definitely counts.
Iowa Voice points us to the Wikipedia’s description of the aftermath:
Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after being released. Up to two million civilians left the country, and as many as half of these boat people perished at sea.
(snip)
After repeated border clashes in 1978, Vietnam invaded Democratic Kampuchea (Cambodia) and ousted the Khmer Rouge. As many as two million died during the Khmer Rouge genocide.
John Kerry needs you to believe that when we left Vietnam, it “wasn’t that bad†is so the Democrats can lie to the American people and claim that we can leave Iraq and it, like Vietnam, won’t be “that bad.â€.
You just keep telling yourself that, Johnny boy. You keep telling yourself that. Anything to help you sleep better at night.
What is he thinking? He should be upbraided on the floor of the Senate for what he said. Everybody knows millions of people died after Viet Nam and we can expect a smilar catastrophe in Iraq, but I believe it’s going to happen whether we’re there another year or another 5 years. Even if we get Iraq under control, Iran or Syria will destabilize it as soon as we leave. If things aren’t a whole lot better in September, I believe it’s time to start the long pull out, which I have seen estimated to take at least 20 months. I just pray our troops get out safely. I know those who are at the end of the line will suffer the most danger.
Dianne, why do you think that millions Iraqis will die regardless of our presence? The sectarian violence in 2006 was bad, but thanks to the surge, June was the least deadly month, for example. It’s not unrealistic to expect that the Iraqis will settle their differences in a peaceful way.
Then again, we could always divide Iraq in three.
Then again, we could always divide Iraq in three.
What f-ing arrogance. Who do you think we are to divide their country?
Of course it’s not surprising someone with that perspective would support pre-emptively invading and occupying other nations: apparently we own the world.
Anon…I hope you’re right, I really do. As I said, I believe Iran and Syria will try to destabilize things as we leave and after. Why? Cause they’re already doing it. Hey I hope for the best.
I left that anonymous comment.
Preston, first of all, I don’t like you calling me arrogant. I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion enough to not hurl insults at you, and I expect the same of you. So let’s play nice, shall we?
Considering that we liberated Iraq at our own risk and how much money and lives we have invested into this country, I think that they should be taking orders from us, not the other way around. Just like the Germans and Japanese after World War 2.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with the demographics of Iraq, but it’s mostly divided among sectarian lines anyway. You’ve got the Kurds in the north, the Shiites in the south, and the Sunnis in the west and center. Even mixed cities, such as Baghdad, are divided into Sunni and Shiite neighborhoods, for the most part. So the demographics would be right to split Iraq in three parts…a process that is happening anyway as Iraqis self-segregate due to the sectarian violence.
Splitting Iraq is, however, a measure of last resort.
Dianne: You’re absolutely right about Iran and Syria (don’t forget Saudi Arabia). That’s why we won’t see a significant victory in Iraq until we deal with the aforementioned nations. If we look throughout history, almost no insurgency has survived without outside support, which is exactly what’s happening in Iraq.
Most importantly, I don’t let anyone tell me that this war is “unwinnable.” This is the country that waged a 13 year insurgency of its own to attain its independence, bled in buckets to end slavery, won two world wars and defeated the evil that is communism. Any war right now is winnable for America. If we have the will to fight it.
Nazar-
Sorry, I would have been more polite if your name had been attached yet I still believe that it ultimately undermines our claim to be acting on their behalf if we believe that we have the right to dismantle their nation.
So- it took 14 years (ignoring the bloody civil war to follow 73 years later) to get from rebellion to Constititution for 13 ethnicly, religiously, and culturally similar states steeped in democratic principals and practices. How long should we be prepared to wait for democracy from ethnically, religiously, and culturally embattled groups with no history of democracy? How many lives should we be prepared to sacrifice over the next 14+ years?
(It might be also useful to remember that it was the rebels that won and the imperial superpower who lost that war.)
Could everybody please stick to the topic of condemning John Kerry for being a lying liar who tells lies (a historical revisionist for political pandering and opportunity)?
Remember — Kerry just said that the US pulling out of Vietnam “wasn’t that bad” for those left behind. And that the resulting bloodbath “never occurred”.
What say you to Kerry’s statement?
Preston, you brought up an interesting insight-the fact that the colonies were mostly homogonous in their religion and race. Without a doubt, this united and helped our Founding Fathers, and its a barrier that the Iraqis themselves must overcome. I believe that with our help, they can and will. Also, our very own democracy will one day cease to be majority white, and I believe that America will be as much a democracy on that day as it is today. Our common ideals bind us together as Americans, not our race or religion, and that is what the kind of mindset we need to foster in Iraq.
Most counter-insurgencies take a decade to end, that’s the average. Some take longer, and I believe that some of the fumbles of the Bush administration during the early stages of this war will take the Iraqi counter-insurgency longer to pan out, if you will.
There has been remarkable and undeniable progress in Iraq in places like Al-anbar province (which a Marine intel report described as “lost” to al-qaida in 2006) that can be transplanted to other trouble spots in Iraq.
I think that right now, we need to have a “father knows best” mentality when it comes to Iraq, in which we are the father. The Iraqi government we have in place now has questionable loyalty to us, and more ties to Iran than I would like, so just doing what they tell us to do isn’t a good strategy to achieve victory. As I said before, we have invested too many lives and money into this.
Heh, I bet Kerry also thinks that Iraq was better off under Saddam.
Are we supposed to assume that those who died at the hands of the Vietnamese would have preferred to have been added to the millions who died as a result of American carpet bombing? Simply to say that both continued US presence in Vietnam and US withdrawal were likely to result in civilian casualties.
I wish that the result of these two precedents could be an agreement that the invasion and occupation of a foreign country isn’t the most efficient means of providing stability. Yet I’m sure we’ll soon be hearing how Iran would benefit from it’s own Surge.
Preston, the point is that those millions who died when we left didn’t have to die, and wouldn’t have died if we maintained our commitment to Vietnam. By 1975, the Vietnam War war was won militarily. The only thing that kept the communists going was the hope that the anti-war movement in America would end our involvement in Vietnam and they would be able to take over. Unfortunately, they were right.
Preston, I think you’re intelligent enough to know that communist regimes have a tendency to kill their own people…by the millions. Whatever effect our carpet-bombing had on the civilian population of Vietnam is no worse than what their own regime would have done to its own people.
Obviously, it can be seen in retrospect that the Vietnamese government was murderous yet at the time we were conducting a policy that was resulting in the death of thousands or millions.
Preston, since you don’t argue with Robbie’s central point (Kerry lied) I take it you agree.
And of course by late 1974 we were out of Viet Nam and the south was holding their own. Only when a Democrat congress cut off our friends at the knees did the bloodbath ensue.
Good points Preston.
Not heard anything yet to counter them.
Jonny
Jim- It’s my understanding that very large numbers of Vietnamese died after the war. I don’t know what Kerry said or what he was talking about.
But as I mentioned earlier the possibility of slaughter in the future isn’t a reason to stop the slaughter occurring in the present.
… I only wish that the destabilization of invasion and occupation was considered before the utilization of massive force.
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[...] Comment on John Kerry Lied, People Did Die by Reeducation-Camps …John Kerry Lied, People Did DieHundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after … [...]
[...] Comment on John Kerry Lied, People Did Die by Reeducation-Camps …John Kerry Lied, People Did DieHundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after … … [...]