Do you honestly think that the left wants Jefferson to stay in office?

but simply trying to hook up isn’t against the law
From what I’ve heard about cruising stings in the last week that is a questionable assertion. I don’t want people having sex in public places but there is something unsettling about these stings. (Of course, if people like Senator Craig hadn’t been so determined denying legitimacy to gay relationships people like himself might not have to troll restrooms.)

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 7:01 am

There is nothing unsettling about these stings in that they are the result of numerous complaints by people who don’t want to be solicited and don’t want to see it or have their kids see it.

And, it has absolutely nothing to do with legitimizing gay relationships or possibly even being gay. I heard a psychologist speak on the radio who treats people who do this. Very few will admit they are gay and they become extremely indignant if it is even suggested or he suggests they instead see a gay prostitute. In fact, the psych sez it is not certain that everyone who does this is gay. They believe that like most compulsions/sexual fetishes it may be the result of being exposed to porn at an early age or sexual abuse. He says the last thing they are looking for is a relationship. They want quick anonymous public oral sex. They don’t go back to the same place but instead rotate on a route of these pitstops, which is more to do with their seeking emotional detachment.

They treat them by trying to get them to understand why they do this and how dangerous this behavior is in that they could get physically hurt, arrested, lose their jobs and families. Unfortunately, the majority of them relapse within 6 months and continue to relapse.

While I feel sorry for Craig, again, I don’t see where I have to tolerate this type of behavior since it is public. We can’t use the bathrooms in upscale malls, we can’t use the bathrooms in parks, we can’t use the bathrooms at the beaches, we can’t use the city hiking trails, without being exposed to this crap.

Left by kma on September 1st, 2007 at 9:05 am

Oh, and while Craig didn’t commit the crime of solicitation (an offer of sex for money), or lewd conduct, he did commit the crimes of disorderly conduct (sticking his hand and foot in the next stall) and peeping through the cracks.

Also, Jefferson belongs in prison. Not sure why it is taking so long.

Left by kma on September 1st, 2007 at 9:12 am

I was a little disturbed by the officers comments in the audio tape. It almost seemed to be a “trophy” arrest.
If Sen. Craig actually did, what it is alleged he did, then he needs to face the consequences. I heard a judge say, he thought Craig made the plea with no attorney, rather than fight back with an attorney, to avoid the possibility he could be labeled for life, as a registered sexual offender.
The obvious difference between how the two parties react to the misconduct of one of their own, is still striking. Circle the wagons on the left, no matter how disgusting or lurid the behavior, while demanding accountability and resignations on the right, for the same type of behavior.
I like Jonah Goldberg’s take on it…Gay Sex Offsets.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 9:39 am

No2Liberals:
The obvious difference between how the two parties react to the misconduct of one of their own, is still striking

Your statement is baseless. The real lesson (comparing the Vitter and Craig cases) is that if a Republican Senator wants to have an extramarital affair is to make sure you have a Democratic Governor in office.

Beyond that, virtually every leftwing advocacy group beyond the CBC has called for Jefferson to step down.

I can’t decide if y’all actually believe the things you write- is it self-deception or propaganda?

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 11:38 am

No2Libs: I believe the officer was aggressive because Craig waived Miranda so it was an opportunity to get a confession. I believe the officer thought Craig would fight it and that is why he wanted a confession. Also, he was pissed off when Craig to him that he had solicited him. It’s not much of a trophy – more like a headache.

When Craig pled a couple of weeks later, I think he thought since it hadn’t made the news, maybe it will just quietly go away. I’m not that familiar with Minn law but I seriously doubt the peeping was a registered offense. I have no doubt Craig is filled with selfloathing and has no idea why he is involved in this high risk behavior. I’m surprised that therapy and possibly ocd drugs aren’t more successful in treating this.

Left by kma on September 1st, 2007 at 12:02 pm

Your statement is baseless.

Hardly. Look how quickly Craig resigned. Jefferson is still in office and in fact won a re-election, which I don’t think he could have done without some of the party’s support.

Left by kma on September 1st, 2007 at 12:07 pm

KMA-
There is nothing unsettling about these stings
Somehow it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t mind people being arrested for crimes they haven’t committed.

I’m surprised that therapy and possibly ocd drugs aren’t more successful in treating this.
Craig is attracted to men yet would lose his job if he came out of the closet. Do you suppose that drugs would “treat” your attraction to women?

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 12:13 pm

Look how quickly Craig resigned.
Do you think this is related to the prospect of Craig’s impending defeat to a Democrat in November 2008?

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Hardly baseless, Preston.
I could go down a long list of liberal misconduct in high office, to illustrate my point, such as Barney Frank’s pimp boyfriend operating out of Barney’s home, and Barney trying to fix his pimp boyfriend’s parking violations, and of course The Horny Hick’s, eventual impeachment and disbarment. There are too many to list, and the moral equivalence doesn’t really interest me. The left defends and obfuscates their fellow travelers indiscretions, at least in the past twenty years I’ve been observing. At least the Admiral of the Chappaquidick resigned after he received a slap on the wrist, but ran for election again, and has remained in the Senate since.

KMA, I am not going to presume what the arresting officer was or was not thinking. Having been a policeman, and years of developing my BS detector, the more I think about the officers conduct in this matter, the more it troubles me. Perhaps a proctological exam of the officer is needed. Officers have been known to target high profile people in the past. Sad, but true.
That this alleged offense, a matter of public record, was able to proceed to a plea, over the course of several months without the LameStream media, the leftist blogs, or the Soros funded organs not knowing, and reporting on it, just seems very odd.
My BS detector isn’t pegged, but it is up.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 12:51 pm

OT, but an important date in history is today.
The three year anniversary of the terrorist attack on Beslan.
I hate murderers!

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 1:08 pm

N2L:

I’m floored that you are apparently making this argument with a straight face just weeks after it became public knowledge that the Republican Senator of Louisiana enjoys paying for sex. To my knowledge Vitter has not been stripped of his committee positions or kicked from the Republican party.

Is this the fault of the ‘liberal media’ or are hookers simply a ‘family value’ that we liberals are missing out on?

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 1:42 pm

Somehow it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t mind people being arrested for crimes they haven’t committed.

Somehow it doesn’t surprise me that you will always make shit up instead of conceding defeat. He committed the crime of disorderly conduct and the crime of intrusion on another person’s privacy, aka, peeping. He was arrested for both and allowed to plead to one.

Craig is attracted to men yet would lose his job if he came out of the closet.

Wouldn’t stop me from voting for him. Sorry, to learn that you have problems with gays in public office.

Do you suppose that drugs would “treat” your attraction to women?

But his is not an attraction to men. It is a compulsion to engage in high risk, public, oral copulation, in bathrooms. Gay men fully out of the closet also engage in this behavior. What is their excuse?

Oh, do you suppose that drugs would “treat” your penchant for lying?

Left by kma on September 1st, 2007 at 1:53 pm

*SIGH*
So you are circling the wagons too?
Too be honest, I didn’t really pay much attention to the Vitter matter, other than thinking about his family, and how his constituents would react. As far as his enjoying paying for sex, I will leave that interpretation to you. I noticed a great deal of silence, from both parties on this matter. Perhaps for good reason, like waiting for the other shoe to drop, as there were many phone numbers on that list.
But since you want to circle the wagons, and do the moral equivalence game, as leftists seem apt to enjoy, here are just a few.
Former Rep. Mel Reynolds. The Illinois Democrat was convicted of 12 counts of sexual assault with a 16-year-old. President Bill Clinton pardoned him before leaving office.
Former Rep. Gerry Studds. He was censured for sexual relationship with underage male page in 1983. Massachusetts voters returned him to office for six more terms. As his censure was read in Congress, he turned his back to his colleagues in protest — as he felt he did nothing wrong in having the “consensual” relationship — and then proceeded to be re-elected by the moderate folk of Massachusetts (who gave him a standing ovation upon his return from the censure vote) until his retirement in 1996.
Former Rep. Wayne Hays. The late Ohio Democrat hired an unqualified secretary reportedly for sexual acts. Although he resigned from Congress, the Democratic House leadership stalled in removing him from the Administration Committee in 1976.
Former Rep. John Young. The late Texas Democrat increased the salary of a staffer after she gave in to his sexual advances. The congressman won re-election in 1976 but lost two years later.
Former Rep. Fred Richmond. This New York Democrat was arrested in 1978 for soliciting sex from a 16-year-old. He remained in Congress and won re-election—before eventually resigning in 1982 after pleading guilty to tax evasion and drug possession.
Rep. Barney Frank. The outspoken Massachusetts Democrat hired a male prostitute who ran a prostitution service from Frank’s residence in the 1980s. Only two Democrats in the House of Representatives voted to censure him in 1990.
Former Rep. Gus Savage. The Illinois Democrat was accused of fondling a Peace Corps volunteer in 1989 while on a trip to Africa. The House Ethics Committee decided against disciplinary action in 1990.
Sen. Daniel Inouye. The 82-year-old Hawaii Democrat was accused in the 1990s by numerous women of sexual harassment. Democrats cast doubt on the allegations and the Senate Ethics Committee dropped its investigation.

It’s your turn, as there are many scandals involving the right, but I still maintain the left circles the wagons, and have given just a few examples.
Irrespective of this useless exercise, it is important to note that in this case, just as in the Foley matter, there was no actual sex involved, consensual or otherwise. To most conservatives that I know, if the allegations of Sen. Craig’s actions are true, then he must face the consequences, he quit all committees, then the calls from the party for his resignation began. Personally, I think he should have stayed on and fought, and never made a deal, since the charges seem suspect, and I don’t believe in giving the liberals anything that they want, but by his resigning, he may have removed some of their ammo. Regardless, he has resigned, the chattering classes have their weekend news topic, and life goes on.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 3:07 pm

N2L:

The moral equivilence game?

Just to clarify, my argument is simply that your claim (and Robbie’s) that Republican Senators will eject wrongdoers is belied by the continued service of Senator Vitter.

I offered you two Republicans who committed similar crimes. One of those is still in office. You can conclude that the reason is that either 1. Republicans in the Senate condone hookers over anonymous gay sex or 2. Republicans in the Senate will rally around a colleague who stands to be replaced by a Democrat but throw under the bus a colleague who will be replaced by a Republican. In either case it is clear that some wrongdoers are welcome Congress even if others are pressured to resign.

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 6:23 pm

You ask me that last question, after the carefully worded post I made?
Come on Preston, don’t play silly games, debate and discuss reasonably.
Either you didn’t read my previous post, or you didn’t comprehend it. I don’t condone illegal or improper behavior by anyone, much less an elected official.

Excellent post from Mark Steyn.
Mark Steyn: There were two creeps in the men’s room.

The left gives the impression that a Republican senator caught in a whorehouse ought immediately to say, “You’re right. I should have supported earmarks for hookers in the 2005 appropriations bill.” That’s the reason why sex scandals take down Republicans but not Democrats: Sex-wise, the left’s standards are that whatever’s your bag is cool – which is the equivalent of no standards.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 6:31 pm

No2L:

Apparently, we are pretty much in agreement. The Steyn article is essentially what I’ve been arguing the whole time. I’m sorry if that’s not been clear.

To boil it down:
1. Craig is apparently gay
2. Craig was cruising for sex
3. I am troubled by sting operations that may as likely entrap innocents even if I agree with the goal of the police exercise.

That’s about it.

Left by Preston on September 1st, 2007 at 7:03 pm

This posting is distracting me from what is important, three different college games I’m trying to watch, simultaneously.
I have friends that are liberals, in both the web world and the ‘meat’ world. We all get along fine, and have some fun with spirited debate, without descending into ugly verbal exchanges. Because we aren’t mindless ideologues, and can agree and disagree on many issues, without being offensive.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 7:07 pm

The only thing that shows Craig was cruising for sex, to me, is his plea.
I’m not certain if he is gay, and really don’t care about his personal life, other than when it is illegal. The arrest and interview still trouble me though, for many reasons, and I think if he had fought the charges, it may have been determined his rights were violated, but OTH, he could have been found guilty and labeled a registered sexual offender for the rest of his life.
He resigned, and that is cool with me.

Left by no2liberals on September 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pm

I can agree with all that. I hope your team did as well as my Ramblin Wreck did.

Left by Preston on September 2nd, 2007 at 4:59 am

he could have been found guilty and labeled a registered sexual offender for the rest of his life.

No. He was never charged with registerable sex offenses. I tried to link the code sections he was charged with but Robbie’s spam filter ate it.

Left by kma on September 2nd, 2007 at 6:54 am

Preston,
I don’t have just one team I pull for, and am not very emotionally invested, just love to see good football. Mostly, as long as the SEC and Big 12 teams do well, I’m happy.

KMA,
If his charges didn’t reach that level, then he was either guilty or got bad counsel. Copping a plea is generally in the best interest of the accused, he must have been guilty. Waving his Miranda rights, and agreeing to an interview, was very poor judgement on his part.
And what is it with the Minneapolis airport, anyway? I’ve heard of more incidents and nonsense, coming from that place in the past year. DFW International is much bigger and busier, and you never hear of the kind of weirdness you do from Minneapolis.

Left by no2liberals on September 2nd, 2007 at 9:52 am

I have no idea what you are talking about, No2Libs. Weird things happened at my local airport all the time. They just don’t get reported. I do know, and I think I already wrote about it, that this behavior is a big problem in a number of places you would never think it would happen in, e.g., upscale and suburban malls. Again, for obvious reasons, the businesses don’t want it to be known that they have this sort of problem.

Left by kma on September 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 am

KMA
The flying imams thing, the muslim cab drivers, Sen.Craig, and some other things that have happened there in the recent past.
There are incidents at DFW, but usually the run of the mill possession charges, and drunk and disorderly. Nothing high profile.
No, I really didn’t know this kind of behavior was so wide spread.

And now a word from the Great One.

Left by no2liberals on September 2nd, 2007 at 10:50 am

Lets all take a step back and realize the larger point of what we are talking about here…these are our elected leaders. the American people elected these bums…….and what have we gotten??? scandal after pathetic scandal…what is wrong with us for electing such a bunch of sorry losers….look at the list of losers you guys have come up with.!! pathetic that these people are in elected office….what have we become in this country when the best we can do is chose from a bunch of cheating, money grubbing, perverts to lead us into the 21st century…?????….I am telling you all, unless we start to vote 3rd party and send the message: “The B.S. is Over”.. to the two main parties then be prepared for decade after decade of exactly what we have now.! unless we scare the dems and repubs into changing they ain’t never gonna do it…..damn its sad our country as fallen to such pathetic lows..no wonder the Muslims look at us as a corrupt & morally weak country. This email stream should be a WAKE up call people to change their voting patterns.!!
That seems so freakin obvious to me, why not to others I will never understand.

Left by Marc on September 3rd, 2007 at 11:11 am

Marc, hopefully you will join progressives in their campaigns to level the playing field of campaign finance and to break up media monopolies so that elected officials can’t guarantee their re-election with enormous warchests. Appealing to Scalia, Thomas et al about the legality of gerrymandering would be a nice step too.

Left by Preston on September 3rd, 2007 at 3:40 pm

I can assure you Preston, if I saw a candidate or party that stood for true change that included all you listed and many more issues I would follow and work for them. I could care less the party label, those mean nothing anymore. really the the party label has become nothing more than a rallying point for the voters to stand behind and cheer. we all know that when the election is over and the two parties go to work they are a lot closer in their goals than we are lead to believe. it is a shell game now…follow the money, see who has the high ground now..is it a Democrat, no its a Republican, no now its a Democrat again. we need to wake up and see that this power shell game is the reason we are in the shape we are in today with such a sorry lot of leaders. we the people need to get off our butts and kick out every incumbent for starters, I mean a complete wholesale firing. that’s the mission statement we send congress…”the gravy train is over”. you listen to us or your next when its your turn. then we use this electronic media to fashion our agenda, groom our candidates, fund them and get them into office. this is grass roots people, the way it should be. I agree Preston the money now it takes to get elected is stupid obscene. media monopolies, break them and break them good. you want transparency? then lets have it thru and thru. all the entitlements elected officials get, somehow that HAS to stop. I am tired so forgive me if I ramble, there are just too many issues to list that are broken and need to be retooled or thrown out. but it all starts with educating people about the shell game of 8 years Democrat, 8 years Republican, over and over. it starts with having the courage to vote someone out of office even if he agrees with you, just to make a statement that new blood is needed, and there is no guarantee of power anymore. I am a realist, do I think people will agree with me? probably not. I am sure people will say, that’s crazy why would i vote out someone who agrees with me..I might get someone who completely disagrees with me and I am not doing that.!!..and that is exactly the reason why the two parties have us right where they want us. because we voters will never do anything different and the hold this two party system has on us will probably never be broken because we don’t have the unity and courage to throw it all away just in hopes that something new and better can take its place……it all starts with one simple vote.

Left by Marc on September 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 pm

The story ain’t over, until Ann Coulter says so.

Left by no2liberals on September 5th, 2007 at 8:05 pm