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Gillian Gibbons, the teacher I wrote about here in the Teddy Bear named Mohammad debacle in Sudan — has been pardoned after serving 2 weeks in jail for the horrific and unimaginable crime of…wait for it…allowing her students to name a classroom teddy bear after the “great” Islamic prophet, Mohammad.

British Muslim groups spoke out strongly in favor of Gibbons and said the Sudanese government’s actions in the case have created greater misunderstandings about Islam.

“This has certainly given ammunition to those who never miss an opportunity to portray Muslims as intolerant,” Bunglawala [Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain] said.

Sorry…but this woman was imprisoned for allowing some little kids to name their toy “Mohammad” — what part of that isn’t intolerant.

But my perception of Muslims as being “intolerant” is much more reinforced by scenes like the mob of machete-wielding Muslim men demonstrating outside of Gibbon’s jail cell, calling for her death.

If you want to be viewed as tolerant, quit blowing shit up and cutting off peoples’ heads every time you think your prophet has been slighted.

Shit, if Christians went around killing everybody who insulted or mocked Jesus Christ, Hollywood would be deserted and there would only be a handful of Liberals left roaming the country.

As Glenn Reynolds notes, “Don’t want to be thought of as barbarians? Don’t act that way.”

Exactly.

17 Responses to “The “Perception” of Muslim Intolerance”

So, the British groups are doing exactly what you’d have them do. Do you expect them to shout “… and convert to Christianity!”?

Robbie, do you seriously believe there aren’t “Christians” out there who want nothing more than the corpse of every man woman and child who will not submit to Christ to be laid at their feet? Because I assure you, there are.

John — Christianity doesn’t demand nor require anybody to submit to Christ (or to Christianity itself).

You have Christianity confused with Islam in that regard. The Koran even spells out what should be done to those who do not submit to Islam (beheading them is mentioned).

Are there a few lone wackos who would kill in the name of Christianity? Of course there are. I just don’t remember the last instance of it. Or many instances of it.

On the other hand, the number of people who have been killed by Islamists for things such as 1) drawing cartoons of the prophet, 2) being gay, 3) being a rape victim, 4) being a Christian, or, 5) not submitting to Islam.

Sorry, but Christian orthodoxy doesn’t call for everyone to be converted (or else) to Christianity.

To try to conflate the barbarism of fundamentalist Islamists with Christian fundamentalisms is intellectually dishonest.

*Sigh* Robbie, this is getting really tired. Once again, allow me to re-post what I did the last time we got into this argument:

Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. (Joshua 10:40)

But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

You can’t remember the last incident, or any incidence of Christians killing in the name of Jesus? Go to google and type in Aryan Nation or KKK or The Crusades and get back to me. These are all ostensibly “Christian” organizations that think nothing of slaying all those who don’t adhere to their warped sense of “morality”

Willfully blinding yourself to the inadequacies of one religion while decrying those of another religion is intellectually dishonest.

John, the scripture you quoted is pre-Christianity.
The Crusades were a reaction to the Arab-Islamic Invasion that was spread by the sword after Ol’Moh and his MohMen took Mecca, destroyed all but one of the thirty one pagan idols surrounding the Kabba, which was the moon goddess “Allah.” Ol’Moh, thankfully, was murdered by one of his Persian slaves in 632A.D., and his BIL Omar, became the first Caliph, and the slaughter or submission of all that came into contact with Islam continued unabated for quite some time.
A short history:
1. 630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca from his base in Medina.
2. 632 - Muhammad dies in Medina. Islam controls the Hijaz.
3. 636 - conquest of Syria. Victory in battle over the Byzantines gives Syria and the surrounding lands, all Christian - including Palestine and Iraq - to the Caliph.
4. 636 - 642 Persia conquered by the Muslims.
5. 642 - conquest of Egypt. The Arab/Muslim conquest moves west along North Africa into hitherto non-Arab/non-Muslim lands.

1st Muslim invasion of Europe: from the West

1. 711 - Tariq (after whom Gibraltar is named: the Rock of Tariq - Gib al-Tariq) invades Spain. The Muslim conquest moves into Europe.
2. 718 - conquest of Spain complete.
3. 732 - Muslim invasion of France is stopped at the Battle of Poitiers (also called the Battle of Tours). This is regarded as one of the turning points in world history. The Franks, under their leader Charles Martel (the grandfather of Charlemagne), defeat the Muslims and turn them back out of France.

2nd Muslim invasion of Europe: from the East

1. 1453 - Muslim Turks conquer Christian Constantinople and make it the seat of the Caliphate
2. 1456 - Muslims conquer Athens
3. 1478 - Serbia, Bosnia, Crimea come under Ottoman control
4. 1480 - Otranto in Italy taken by the Ottomans
5. 1529 - Vienna besieged by the Ottomans
6. 1683 - Battle of Vienna. The Turks are defeated by the Polish king Jan Sobieski leading a combined Polish-Lithuanian army. This is the high-water-mark of Turkish/Muslim conquest of Europe from the East.

Referring to the Aryan Nation and KKK as anything other than terrorist groups is false.
The conquests of Islam began with it’s inception, and has been spread by the sword since 610A.D. It’s conquests and war-like tendencies are readily available with a simple google search. Christianity, on the other hand, had it’s reformation, something which Islam has never experienced, and remains locked in it’s medieval tenets in a modern world. It is an abomination, as it still refers to the world in two houses, Dar al-Islam, the house of allah, and Dar al-Harb, the house of war. The U.S., and any other secular, liberal democracy is Dar al-Harb to islam, and when a devout muslim lives in Dar al-Harb, he can use al-taqqiya so as not to reveal his true intentions.
I don’t know why you are so convinced of islam as being comparable to other beliefs, or even compatible with modern society, but I don’t think the information available supports your contention. I know middle east men that live here in Dallas, that converted to Christianity after living here for a while, as they weren’t afraid of having their heads cut off, and several of them are so adamant against islam, and in their words “it’s ignorance,” that they want all muslims forbidden the right to immigrate here.
A Short History of Muslim Conquests.
A fascinating video on Arab TV on liberalism and islam.

Hey John, this is the 21st century, the Crusades happened a very long time ago. Let’s focus on the here and now, shall we?

As N2l mentioned, Christianity underwent its reformation. What matters is how Christians behave themselves. You could worship turtles, and still be a wonderful human being. When it comes to religious matters, Christians in general behave themselves infinitely better than Muslims. To claim otherwise or to equate the two is absurd and delusional.

Also, the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood are fringe groups in Christianity, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are anything but fringe groups in Islam.

I agree with John that the text of the Bible certainly has some eliminationist rhetoric yet I agree with No2 and Nazar that the Reformation revised most of this thinking with ideas about tolerance and the separation of church and state.

That’s why it’s so ironic when American Christianists seem to pine for religious law in this country. No to Sharia! In Arabia or the US!

(I’m curious how Fundamentalists handle this. The greatness of Christianity comes from the liberalization of the Reformation- yet the text as John points out isn’t so liberal at all and reads just as brutally as the Koran.)

Hey Preston.

I’m just curious how exactly “American Christianists” want religious law in our country. Also, what do you mean by “American Christianists”?

Please don’t use abortion or same sex marriage as examples, those are positions influenced by beliefs, they are not the enforcement of Christian religion per se.

Are you all really that blind that you can’t see the double standard you’ve created? Anybody who kills in the name of Christ is a “lone wacko” and a bad excuse for a Christian, but similarly fundamentalist nutjobs who kill in the name of Allah are shining examples of Islam?

Getting into an argument over how long ago what happened or comparing how many “Muslims” versus “Christians” kill in the name of their God amounts to little more than semantics. The point is, that crazy fundamentalism has the potential to pollute any religious faith, and that THIS corruption of spiritual ideals at the hands of power-hungry individuals (because that is really what this all boils down to) is the real problem, something that goes far beyond Christianity or Islam.

Also, Aryan Nation and the KKK are terrorist groups. However their members also claim that their work is done in the name of good white Christian values, and this is a fact.

It is true that there have been Christians who are extremists and have committed acts of violence. The difference is that these people are condemned by the vast majority of Christians and not considered to be “martrys” or praised when they kill and maim in the name of their beliefs; when caught, they go to trial and are punished. There are also no texts in the bible to support those actions.
————-
As to the KKK, it is true that they have tried to misuse religion to justify their hateful ideology, but the facts are that there are no teachings of Jesus Christ that back up their beliefs. Also, the KKK and their ilk have been denounced and marginalized by the vast majority of Americans. They have no power. The KKK, of course, are not alone in their hateful, bigoted beliefs. Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam are just as supremacist and hateful as the KKK or Aryan Nations. And I wonder if their message of intolerance has been as marginalized as much as that of the KKK.

Read it all, it isn’t long.

For the most part, the Christian Identity Movement appears to be waning. The surprising thing may be that they still exist at all. After all, the “science” that originally spawned the idea of the Aryan is now known to be faulty, the text that laid the framework for their anti-Semitism (The Protocols) is known to be a fraud, their most celebrated hero (Hitler) died in defeat, and in light of the WTC disaster, the only other major group that shares their views that the Moussad may have been behind it and that the US is controlled by foreign Jewish interests is Fundamentalist Muslims. Not quite the people that anyone in the US who claims to be a “patriot” wants to be allied with right now.

The Christian Identity Movement
(Also Aryan Nation, National Alliance, etc)

Some facts are looser than others.
Irrespective of the potential of any religion to be influenced by crazy fundamentalist, no belief system does it quite like Ol’Moh’s system.

Christianity is different from Islam because it allows you to question it. It probably wasn’t different in the past, but it is now. Christians - at least Christians in a liberal democracy - have accepted, after Thomas Hobbes, that they must obey the secular rule of law; that there must be a separation of church and state. In Islamic doctrine such a separation has not occurred yet. This is what makes it dangerous!

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Also, Ten Reasons Why Islam Is Not The Religion of Peace.

All I can add is, know thy enemy.

Please don’t use abortion or same sex marriage as examples, those are positions influenced by beliefs, they are not the enforcement of Christian religion per se.

Yeah, I think the correlation between fundamentalism and the belief that the government should deny Americans the right to reproductive freedom or same-sex marriage is a little too high to be swept away that easily.

Maybe you don’t have conservative relatives- I get email all the time that says (to paraphrase) “96% of Americans believe in God- if the 4% have a problem with God in the public sphere they can lump it!” (There are probably a lot more capital letters and exclamation points in the real email…) This, to me, suggests a stronger commitment to Christianity than to the principles of the Constitution.

John, you’re not reading what I’m saying. The reason why the few Christians who commit terrorist acts are considered “loons” is because there’s so few of them compared to mainstream Christianity, and virtually every mainstream Christian group ostracizes them. Whenever Musilms commit terrorist acts (which they do far more than Christians), they are actually praised by many mainstream Musilm groups, and rationalized away by many others. Of course there are millions of wonderful Muslims who are horrified at what is being done in the name of their religion, but they don’t have a strong organized voice, and because of that, the tendency towards terrorism is far stronger in Islam than Christianity.

I fully agree that the KKK and aryan brotherhood are repulsive hate groups…but they’re not mainstream, and that’s the important thing to remember. And let’s not overlook all the wonderful humanitarian work that evangelicals do overseas, who are far more numerous than the white supremacists. Their beliefs are influenced by Christianity too.

Hey Preston.

I respectfully disagree. Just as Christians beliefs regarding social issues are influenced by Christianity, so are your beliefs as a secularist. Based on your definition of human rights from secularism, you may say that all human beings, regardless of gender, have the right to marry, and that’s fine. The problem would be if you tried to convert others to your belief system through force.

Regarding the e-mails, I can understand the frustration of some Christians (although I’m not a Christian) when references to god are removed from the public sphere. This is something the Left has been trying to do since the sixties, and it offends many people. However, they’re still not forcing their religion on you. Nobody forces you to say god bless America, or to pray in your workplace. If some of your coworkers want to do that, that should be their right.

Monthly Jihad Report November 2007
Jihad Attacks: 203
Countries: 13
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 1138
Critically Injured: 1358

TROP.

I posed this question in another post (link):

If you could only stop one (today) — Muslims killing in the name of Allah and Mohammad, or Christians killing in the name of God and Jesus Christ — which one would you stop?

Don’t be a pussy-fence sitter — choose one or the other. (go to that thread to answer)

If some of your coworkers want to do that, that should be their right

Nazar- No one is stopping them.

This is where the religious right confuses the Constitution: they have a Constitutionally protected right to practice their religion. The ACLU is out there every day protecting the rights of the religious from infringements of government.

But I also have the Constitutionally protected right not to have my government proselytize for Christianity. I’m sure you don’t need me to point this out: but the devil (literally?!?) is in the details.

As an aside, I find it interesting that Mitt Romney’s father did not face these same questions about his religion that he does when he ran for President. The Republican party has shifted so much and spirituality has become so much more prominent that this man’s religion is on trial. Despite the cries of the religious right it seems to me that appeals to religion in the public sphere are much more coercive than they were at earlier ages of American history. It is virtually mandated that a national politician genuflect before a ‘proper’ religion in a way that did not happen 200 years or 100 years ago when Deists and atheists were roaming about Washington DC.

American Chaplain discovers the truth.
What is the Bible - REALLY?
http://bibleislam.com

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