I know you’re not trying to get into a theological discussion, but your final point’s one of my pet peeves.

Are you really that vested in the teachings of Jesus and the “turn the other cheek” mentality that you would let some guy beat you and your family to death rather than protect yourself with deadly force?

You know, as a Christian who firmly believes in the right…nay, the DUTY…of self defense and defense of the innocent, those types of contentions really burn my butt.

Anyone who employs Jesus’ admonition to “turn the other cheek” as a rationalization for abdicating their responsibility for the preservation of their own and their family’s well being is not “vested in the teachings of Jesus.” They are vested in misrepresenting the teachings of Jesus to avoid their own responsibilities.

Slapping of the cheek was an insult, not an act of violence. Jesus’ “turn the other cheek” admonition was about responding to insults, not about defending oneself from violence.

There has been much written on this subject, but the two most telling instances of Jesus addressing the issue directly are these:

“Then Jesus asked them, ‘When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ ‘Nothing,’ they answered. He said to them, ‘but now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.’” Luke 22:35-36

In other words, as long as Jesus was physically there, they didn’t need to worry about anything, but now that the Son of God was preparing to return to heaven, they’d better be prepared to take care of themselves…including being ready to defend themselves with the “assault weapons” of the day.

Secondly, in the Garden during Jesus’ arrest, Peter cut the ear off of one of the Soldiers with his sword.

“Jesus commanded Peter, ‘Put your sword away? Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”‘ John 17:25

Jesus didn’t command Peter to “throw” his sword away. He commanded Peter to “put” his sword away because its use was inappropriate at this time. Jesus was fulfilling the task set before him and his arrest was necessary. I believe that if Jesus was condemning all self defense, he would have never condoned his disciples carrying swords in the first place and would have chastised Peter roundly for having it and would have told him to get rid of it immediately.

Jesus was not a pacifist in the modern sense. He did not support violence as a response to insults or derision, but he most definitely supported the bearing and use of defensive arms when necessary to protect innocent life.

Left by Sailorcurt on January 2nd, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Robbie-

Of course he has a right of self-defense yet I think there is some middle ground between “turn the other cheek” and three fatal gunshots.

But the right to defend your car from vandalism with the use of deadly violence is insane.

but he most definitely supported the bearing and use of defensive arms when necessary to protect innocent life.

Got any Scripture in support of that claim?

Left by Preston on January 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Got any Scripture in support of that claim?,/i>

Um. ..did you read the comment you were replying to?

Left by Sailorcurt on January 2nd, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Robbie,

I have to aggree with you on this one concerning protection of family and property. I have no problems unloading a few ounces of lead into a would be attacker/thief. However, I do have to sleep at night , and I would most likely try to knee-cap his ass as opposed to a head shot. Fact is, we all make decisions. Perhaps this law will deter a few up and comming thugs. Kudos to Perry for this one. However, if you find yourself in a scary situation like the guy in San Antionio, and you DONT kill the guy…get ready for a lawsuit. Dead men can’t sue.

Left by Kemo on January 2nd, 2008 at 5:03 pm

However, I do have to sleep at night , and I would most likely try to knee-cap his ass as opposed to a head shot.

In any dangerous situation, the object has nothing to do with killing or injuring…it has everything to do with stopping the threat. The most likely way to do that effectively is to shoot for center mass and keep shooting until the threat is down.

It’s easy to hit a stationary 4″ target from a few feet away under ideal, range conditions. Try it when the target is moving…rapidly…toward you…with the intent to brain you with a bat, under less than ideal lighting, with adrenaline pumping and tunnel vision closing in, with kids, spouses and bystanders screaming and yelling vigorously, with innocents nearby, with barely enough time to point and squeeze, let alone think about sight alignment, lethal or non lethal shots…

Nope. Point it at the biggest part of the threat and pull the trigger repeatedly until the threat goes down or the gun stops going BANG…reload…repeat as necessary.

At least you’ll live to lie awake at night wondering if you could have taken that knee shot…

Left by Sailorcurt on January 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm

147 murders incl. gun related in 2007 in the Netherlands (pop. 16 million) again less than in 2006.

If someone touches my motor bike (anywhere) I’ll talk to him, I’ll make sure that whatever he wanted to do he’d change his mind about it.

Guns are only needed in a violent society full of people with an iq less than the average ape.

It’s Hollywood that you hate, it’s Hollywood you imitate. So Rambo on and feel good, be proud. Be proud you’ve the option to defend yourselves.. Be proud of your gun or guns.

Look at your family and children and never, never ask yourself how they will grow up. What kind of future they will have.

Just because your insane laws your society will become more violent every day, but I’m insane ’cause I don’t own or want a gun. That’s the universe up-side-down.

Ah, well - you gun owners are all so convinced about your right - and if any one argues with you, you don’t talk - you shoot first. Why own a gun if you can’t use it. And if you use use it, make sure it is with deadly force. One shot only.

Left by Jacques on January 2nd, 2008 at 5:29 pm

and if any one argues with you, you don’t talk - you shoot first.

You know, it amazes me that there are any anti-gunners left in the world.

There are some 80 million gun owners in the US. If even a few of us were as unstable as you seem to think, there wouldn’t be many anti-gunners left alive by now, don’t you think?

Considering how dangerous and unstable and liable to shoot someone over a simple disagreement we are, anti-gunners sure don’t seem very reticent about taking up the argument with us. Strange thing that.

Left by Sailorcurt on January 2nd, 2008 at 5:41 pm

If you want to walk around unarmed and unprepared, Jacques, that’s your choice. However, you don’t have the right to force that on me.

And then liberals talk about “conservatives forcing their beliefs on others”…

Face it, my friend, you’re just as socially authoritarian as the staunchest Christian evangelical, just in different ways.

Left by Nazar on January 2nd, 2008 at 8:44 pm

I see our idiot commie poster from Holland had to remind himself how perfect he is.
Here is some interesting info.
There are about the same number of people in Iraq(27.5 million), as there is in Venezuela(27.7million).
It has been reported that in Venezuela, a country with a commie government, 33 people are murdered everyday. That’s one person every 44 minutes, which would mean that in the last three months, approximately 3000 people have been murdered in Venezuela.
During this same last three month period in Iraq, there have been 1498 civilian fatalities, and trending downward.
Interesting, n’est pas?
Then according to this extensive study, which included nine European countries, they found some interesting facts.(there is a pdf for the entire study in this article.)

On the other hand, in Russia–where firearms had been under police-state control for decades–Kates and Mauser found an exceedingly violent society.
Although the Soviet communist regime tried to hide the problem from the rest of the world, the collapse of the Soviet Union exposed the truth: Despite those iron-fisted government controls on firearm ownership–almost no Russian civilians owned firearms–Russia had, and continues to have, by far the highest murder rate in the developed world.

Kates and Mauser write: “In the 1960s and early ’70s, the gunless Soviet Union’s murder rates paralleled or generally exceeded those of gun-ridden America. While American rates stabilized and then steeply declined, however, Russian murder increased so drastically that by the early 1990s the Russian rate was three times higher than that of the United States. Between 1998-2004 … Russian murder rates were nearly four times higher than American rates.”

So let’s review, there are more people being killed in Venezuela, under control of a commie government, than there are being killed in a newly freed and democratic Iraq. Then we find out that there was a higher murder rate in the disarmed country of the Soviet Union/Russia, than there was in the well armed U.S. during the same period of time. One can only assume the Russians found other ways to murder, than with guns.
Conclusion: Commies are not only idiots and totalitarians, opposed to the values of freedom and liberty in this country, but they also get lots of people killed.

Left by no2liberals on January 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 pm

An American comparing the multi party (with no communist party) democracy Kingdom of the Netherlands to Venezuela and Iraq. Exactly what you can expect from a conservative US Republican.

I’m a socialist you fool, and I’m proud of it - that’s my free choice and no gun in the world will take that right from me. So rant on, believe the whole EU is under a communist regime and have fun.

You fool, you ‘re the true example of a American with an IQ less than the average ape.

Left by Jacques on January 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 am

Henh.
Your insecurities are showing, Jacqazz. Careful not to blow a gasket.
You are the one who made the comparison of your country to the two I listed, not I.

The goal of socialism is communism.
Vladimir Lenin

Were I like thee I’d throw away myself.

Left by no2liberals on January 3rd, 2008 at 7:21 am

You did compare it you moron it’s just your quote after mine, furthermore you want everybody to believe Holland is a communist country or the whole EU (EUSSR) for that part. It’s ‘your’ adapted opinion and you’re free to believe it, but it ain’t very close to the truth. And now for the second time you quote Lenin. I thought you don’t believe or trust commies. And what about being original? Have an opinion of your own?

In Europe socialism hasn’t got anything to do with communism, but this is probably very hard to understand for the average southern American.

You live in a violent society because you created one.

Enjoy.

Left by Jacques on January 3rd, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Says the guy who lives in a society where Theo VanGogh had his head sawed off.

Left by Anonymous on January 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm

I know you are an idiot, Jacqazz, but I’ll try and explain it for you.
I was comparing two countries murder rates with different types of governments, the most murderous being led by communist. I was comparing you and your commie attitude (as to me all Marxist are commies, saves time explaining), to the murderous legacy of all commies. I never claimed Holland was a commie country in total, or Europe, but if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified by all 27 EU parliaments by next January, it will become a totalitarian nation, led by unelected officials. You really should learn more about what is going on in your backyard. You can start here.

“Why speak about Europe? Because the history of the nations is finished, and the history of Europe has hardly started. National, economic, commercial sovereignty like financial and, even if it is defended by some, military sovereignty are finished. Their rejection is final, irreversible, and it is so much better.”

So we created a violent society? Actually, we inherited it, and violent crime has been declining since the 70’s.
The only reason so many know about it, including one douche-bag commie from Holland, is that it gets reported so widely, and fits the hate America template that you and your ilk have.
From the study I linked to in my other comment:

“Whether gun availability is viewed as a cause or as a mere coincidence, the long term macrocosmic evidence is that gun ownership spread widely throughout societies consistently correlates with stable or declining murder rates. Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime.

Yep, sure is peaceful and non-violent in the Netherlands.
I wouldn’t trade places with you for all the money your country makes by exporting ‘ecstasy.’

Left by no2liberals on January 3rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Anonymous,
Don’t forget about Pim Fortuyn, or the daily death threats Hirsi Ali or Geert Wilders face from the darling immigrant community in Holland.

Left by no2liberals on January 3rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Ano, Theo was one of the few murdered people in Holland by a Muslim extremist. Shit happens, doesn’t mean it’s a violent society. How do you feel sending your kids to school?

y2l, and yet again the car burnings, very, very original again - it was not pretty, but it wasn’t such a mess as in France or as some of the riots you’ve had - so overall we did good.

You are talking about EUSSR, saying I’m a commie, talking about a Europe becoming a totalitarian nation without any history. Your a fruit cake. You should consider mental help.

“the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime.”

Your quote is complete bullshit - by saying it over and over again it won’t become true. Europe is the example of it, less guns, less murders. It is always used without any further arguments (other than 3rd world countries) and only by complete idiots like you and Heston.

And if I’m a commie, you’re a right wing red neck neo Nazi with a big gun probably to compensate your penis length.

Left by Jacques on January 3rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm

How do you feel sending your kids to school?

I feel better sending them to school than to ride on a bicycle path in that islamic shithole of a country you live in.

Left by Anonymous on January 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am

Islamic shit hole? Homeskooling uh? Btw, there’s nothing wrong with our bicycle paths..

Left by Jacques on January 4th, 2008 at 11:26 am

Hee-Hee!
Jacqazz, you just demonstrated….again….what an idiot you are, and that you refuse to accept any info that contradicts your position. Nazis are Marxist, like you, as are Fascist, socialist, and communist. I am not a Marxist. So go on with your pathetic life, trust in your sea walls, say hello to your friends at the whore houses and hash shops when you walk by, and smile when you see an unemployed person drawing his 800Euro check each month…that was your money, after all, and he’s grateful for it…right?
Since you didn’t bother to read the study I posted, you can remain blissfully ignorant about the other countries in Europe and their gun ownership, so I will quote once again from that study.

We see much the same thing in Luxembourg, where handguns are completely banned and firearm ownership of any kind is rare. Even though its (lawful) citizens are effectively disarmed, in 2002 Luxembourg had a murder rate nine times higher than in neighboring Germany–where firearms are legal and widely owned.

For any proponents of so-called “common-sense gun control” who fail to see the point, Kates and Mauser connected the dots even more clearly in their paper: “Individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use.”

I’m sure that if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified by all the parliaments, they will most likely take away all privately owned guns, that’s what totalitarians do.
Your refusal to acknowledge peer reviewed, scientific studies in favor of your biased and antecdotal beliefs says so much more about how idiotic you are than me or anyone else.
Here’s some more info on the EUSSR.

All the Constitution is there! Nothing is missing!
Jean-Louis Bourlanges (Liberal, France)

We kept the substance of the Constitution
Jo Leinen MEP, Committee President (Socialist, Germany)

We have the same thing but we regressed for transparency and clearness
Enrico Baron Crespo MEP (Socialist, Spain)

It’s incredible to see all what they slipped under the carpet!
Gérard Onesta MEP (Green, France)

Formally, it’s not a constitution but it’s a big step to the constitution
Carlos Carnero MEP (Socialist, Spain)

Our political union finally has a Constitution
Johannes Voggenhuber MEP (Green, Austria)

Source.
Also this from the BBC.

The Dutch cabinet has decided against holding a referendum on the EU’s new Reform Treaty, amid fears the public would reject it at the polls.

Source.
So, to conclude, Jacqazz can continue to insert his enormous and upturned proboscis into the affairs of the U.S., but the serious issues in his own neighborhood won’t go away by ignoring them.
Oh, careful if you go near the Erasmus bridge in Rotterdam.

Left by no2liberals on January 4th, 2008 at 11:44 am

Islamic shit hole? Homeskooling uh? Btw, there’s nothing wrong with our bicycle paths..

My son is in his second year at Stanford Law and my daughter is a first year resident at UCSF Medical Center. And, yes, you live in an islamic shit hole. And there is nothing wrong with your bike paths if you don’t mind your head being sawed off.

Left by Anonymous on January 4th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

AMSTERDAM, 22/09/07 - The Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR) says the Dutch must adapt themselves more to Islam. It also advises the elimination of the word ‘allochtoon’, the most common term used to describe residents with a foreign background.

Source.
Nothing to see hear, just be tolerant.

Left by no2liberals on January 4th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

“I was helped by experts. But the Dutch identity I could not find. “

“The Netherlands is, big windows without curtains, so everybody can directly look inside. But also preferring privacy and coziness. The Netherlands is one cookie beside the coffee. But also enormous hospitality and warmth. Thus the Netherlands is much to diverse to catch in one cliché. The Dutchman does not exist. To comfort you, I can tell you that ‘the Argentinean’ does also not exists either.”

Princess Maxima(originally from Argentina) of NL September 2007
/charming

Left by no2liberals on January 4th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

“and that you refuse to accept any info that contradicts your position” You were looking in the mirror when you thought of the NRA study?

Holland has a monopoly on drugs and whore houses. The US is known as paradise aka hypocrite land.

What about our sea walls? Jealous? You should be.

“Erasmus bridge” - better get your facts straight (as always). And even it was true, it didn’t happen. I can think of at least one other event we all didn’t want to happen.

Left by Jacques on January 4th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Your poor reading comprehension skills are as obvious as your idiocy.
It wasn’t an NRA study, only mention of the study was made on an NRA-ILA post.
Sure there are drugs and ho’s in the U.S., but not licensed by the state. They are criminals, as in most decent societies.
Jealous of your sea wall? Why would I be? Just a reminder that the North Sea will eventually reclaim it’s area.
Now you want to deny that some korananimals didn’t try and blow up that bridge and kill thousands, as printed in a Dutch publication?
You aren’t even worthy of the title as commie troll, more like a lobotomized lemming with a keyboard.

Left by no2liberals on January 4th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

Erasmus ridge, your quote: tabloid talk - here’s the real story and here

Holland does license the selling of soft drugs (nederwiet, weed, hash) - hard drugs is strictly forbidden. It’s a different approach but it’s studied everywhere because it has a positive effect on keeping hard drugs usage and trade as low as possible.

Brothels are legal in Holland, that is - there can’t be too many per city and they can’t be led by criminals - read about what just happened to Yab Yum, the ‘most exclusive brothel on the planet’. Furthermore they pay taxes and hundreds of thousands Americans visit Amsterdam’s red light district a year.

I’m not worried about the treaty, it will make Europe stronger and Holland roots in history are deep enough to keep its own identity, as with all EU nations.

Before Holland turns Islamic, you probably speak Spanish as your first language. Now that’s not going to happen is it?

I started with a posting to this thread saying we had 147 murders (incl. gun related) in 2007 on a society with a pop. of 16 million. What I wanted to point out is that strict gun control doesn’t lead to more murders, in fact we have less murders every year. Now this is a fact - and lots of other civilized countries who have strict gun control are giving you the same numbers. Sure criminals can get any weapon if they want to, but they have to do something for it - they’re not just lying on the street for anybody (or child) to find.

Now you want to live in a society where you can buy and use a weapon legally, and I do not. But shooting someone to death who’s breaking into your car is a bit over the top.

Finally, back to this threads subject.

Left by Jacques on January 5th, 2008 at 6:18 am

It’s good that you tried to get back on topic, but glossing over your derision of the way we chose to live and being insulting is what derailed it.

Guns are only needed in a violent society full of people with an iq less than the average ape.

Ah, well - you gun owners are all so convinced about your right - and if any one argues with you, you don’t talk - you shoot first. Why own a gun if you can’t use it. And if you use use it, make sure it is with deadly force. One shot only.

If that is your idea of being reasonable and on topic, then you are beyond idiotic.
I don’t give a dog turd about your laws and how you live, but when you start insulting us and our laws I will respond in kind.
As for your naivete concerning the EUSSR, I have read and discussed with many different Europeans that don’t like having the constitution being changed to a treaty, and not being allowed to vote on it. One of the aspects they are most concerned about is that the EUSSR will make decisions about immigration policy, and if they decide that a 6% muslim population in Holland isn’t enough, as you have a high tax burden with an aging population, they will increase it, and there will be nothing you can do about it, short of armed revolt. If the EUSSR decides to grant Turkey admission, it will be their decision alone.

Look at your family and children and never, never ask yourself how they will grow up. What kind of future they will have.

Your words and ones you should live by.

Left by no2liberals on January 5th, 2008 at 10:45 am

Here is an interesting summary of events in the Netherlands and Belgium from New Years Eve.

Left by no2liberals on January 5th, 2008 at 11:50 am

Google — trafficking women netherlands

They kidnap and/or force third world women and children into prostitution. Jackie and his islamic shithole of a country are nothing but pimps.

Netherlands = Pimp Nation.

Left by Anonymous on January 5th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

“Your words and ones you should live by.”

Discussion closed.

Left by Jacques on January 6th, 2008 at 12:08 am

FAITHLESS LYRICS

“Insomnia”

I only smoke weed when I need to,
And I need to get some rest, yo, where’s the cess.
I confess, I burnt a hole in the mattress,
Yes, yes, it was me, I plead guilty,
And on the count of three I pull back the duvet,
Make my way to the refrigerator,
One dry potato inside, no lie
Not even bread, jam,
When the light above my head went bam!
I can’t sleep, something’s all over me,
Greasy, insomnia please release me,
And let me dream about making mad love on the heath,
Tearing off tights with my teeth.
But there’s no relief,
I’m wide awake in my kitchen,
It’s black and I’m lonely,
Oh, if I could only get some sleep,
Creaky noises make my skin creep,
I need to get some sleep,
I can’t get no sleep….

Left by Jacques on January 6th, 2008 at 12:25 am

Thou art so leaky that we must leave thee to thy sinking.

Left by no2liberals on January 6th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

what a jacquesass!

Left by adam on January 7th, 2008 at 11:20 am